The Parting of the Ways- The split between Judaism and Christianity was gradual....

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Permalink Reply by RoyW on April 6, 2012 at 9:25am

I agree with LT concerning the remnant of Israel. I hope it is not offensive to say that I believe I also am a part of Israel. Does adoption count? I went to a Messianic teacher's meeting one time and found myself becoming offensive. He was teaching that the Jew was very special to God and required more of them than the rest of the church. I explained that whatever He was requiring of the Jew, He was requiring of me since I was now a part of His family. We were discussing ham and beans at the time (my favorite meal). He was quite certain that God required him to obey the Law but not me. I guess I must admit it did not end too well as I explained that I was equally important to God and equally responsible to Him. AAG has helped me to not be nearly as offensive as I have been a little outspoken in my past. However, I am very excited to have been adopted into this great family and very eager to learn all of God's expectations for this new part of His family.

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on April 6, 2012 at 9:39am

Amanda,

 

It appears that the OT and NT saints make up the bride based on 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. The key is to understand what “dead in Christ” means. If salvation is only found in and through Jesus then all who have died that will be saved up to the time of the rapture have to be in Him in order to come with Him.

 

If Revelation 19-21 is chronological the wedding takes place before the end, thus there are those who live through the tribulation who would not be part of the bride even though their faith is in Christ as well, but saved after the rapture had occurred. These are the ones believed to be the ones in the millennial kingdom who marry and multiply for the 1000 period.

Permalink Reply by RoyW on April 6, 2012 at 9:51am

Ann,

Who do you believe Israel is? Do you believe that includes all physical descendants of Jacob? Would that include all Hebrews? If you include all Hebrews, that becomes a sizable group. I don't think I am understanding what you are trying to say. Are you saying that those who are descended from Jacob will all be saved? Do you believe that those who died without accepting Christ will also be saved? I am the one that mentioned second chances. I would like to know exactly what you are saying. And can you start a new thread? Thanks.

Permalink Reply by Amanda on April 6, 2012 at 10:46am

LT,

Roy gave an interesting analysis on Mt 25:31-35 and said this particular judgment would be based on works concerning these sheep and goats. I think he means his view of those emerging from great tribulations who have survived God's wrath is of them as being saved by works and not faith alone (or saved by grace through faith and given a new birth.) If I am understand what he is saying correctly, then his view is what I was thinking--how these people will be saved. Not born again but like those in the OT were saved.

I have read Psalm 91 many times. I once held the view of Pre-Trib and I always pictured Psalm 91 and the people in it as surviving the last plagues and the reason they survive is although they missed the Rapture, they did not take the mark of the beast and were not harmed by the plagues. But many harmed by the plagues, I pictured them as cursing God even more and not repenting.

I also used to think the Rapture and Resurrection were separate events and would be a few years apart--well 7 :)

Just a few musings:

These people who will enter the thousand years after surviving the time of God's wrath will not receive glorified bodies will they at that time? Will they eat of the tree of life and live long but still all die during the thousand years?

Will they receive a resurrection to life or be doomed to the second resurrection?

Just one last thought: I was thinking there is no more Jew or Gentile but we become something new when we are born again and the Jew does not need to become a Gentile or vice versa because we are a new creation--one new man. Yes, we are adopted into God's family and seen as Abraham's offspring but not because we become an Israelite by the adoption, but because we are a chosen people. 1 Peter 2:9

Have a blessed weekend.

 

 

 

Permalink Reply by M Ann Brown on April 6, 2012 at 6:34am

Did I miss someone's explaination of Ezekiel 37, and how it fits into your eschatology?

The prophet here plainly states that unbelieving Israel will be resurrected and restored to a physical state, and given His Spirit and returned to their land, and to be brought into the Everlasting Covenant.

Based upon some of your responses here, for the unbelieving  Jew who God Himself blinded, it is just "tuff luck".  But  God is just and fair and compassionate, and would not punish someone eternally if it is He Himself that caused the person not to believe.  

This site, is called "All About God".  Please explain how God could blind His people Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles come in

(Rom. 11:25
 ^25"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.")

then because they didn't believe in Jesus (most NEVER having a FIRST CHANCE) , send them to "everlasting damnation" and ignore the prophecy about their resurrection and opportunity for salvation given in Ez. 37.

Someone mentioned that God is not giving a "second chance."  I never mentioned a "second chance". 

Ez. 37, is not talking about a "2nd chance," but a FIRST CHANCE, that Israel who God caused to be blinded, to not to see, finally will have their eyes REOPENED by God and will finally accept their God and Savior.

Paul does say that "all Israel will be saved".   Paul like any first centry Jew/Pharisee had most of the OT memorized and would have been very familiar with Ez.  37, and other prophecies of Israel's final ultimate salvation. 

Even at Jesus' ascension, the disciples asked, when would the "kingdom be restored to Israel".  Would they have asked the Master that question if He had never taught the restoration of Israel?  Remember in that day, 10 of the 12 tribes were still in exile, and in 70 AD those remaining tribes in Israel were driven from the land for their sins, and rejection of their Messiah.  But we know that God has promised too many times to restore Israel, and we know that His plan was for the gentiles to be brought into the covenant, then He would turn His mercy back to Israel and bring them back into His covenant.  

Remember is Is. 2, and in Micah, prophetically speaks of a time yet future, we have a glimpse of the Millinneum where it is prophecied, that all would go up to Zion, and be taught God's laws and His ways. 

Is. 2
  "²In the last days

   the mountain of the LORD’s temple will be established
   as the highest of the mountains;
it will be exalted above the hills,
   and all nations will stream to it.

 ³Many peoples will come and say,

   “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD,
   to the temple of the God of Jacob.
He will teach us his ways,
   so that we may walk in his paths.”
The law (torah) will go out from Zion,
   the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
⁴ He will judge between the nations
   and will settle disputes for many peoples.
They will beat their swords into plowshares
   and their spears into pruning hooks.
Nation will not take up sword against nation,
   nor will they train for war anymore.

 ⁵ Come, descendants of Jacob,
   let us walk in the light of the LORD."
~~~~~~~~

Micah 4:   adds-

The LORD’s Plan

 ⁶“In that day,” declares the LORD,

   “I will gather the lame;
   I will assemble the exiles
   and those I have brought to grief.
⁷ I will make the lame my remnant,
   those driven away a strong nation.
The LORD will rule over them in Mount Zion
   from that day and forever.
⁸ As for you, watchtower of the flock,
   stronghold^[a] of Daughter Zion,

***the former dominion will be restored to you;
   kingship will come to Daughter Jerusalem.”***

The knowledge of this text is reflected in the Apostles question in

Acts 1:

 ⁶ Then they gathered around him and asked Him,

“Lord, **are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel*?”

Ez. 37  tell us what God is doing with Israel:

20b.....the Sovereign LORD says: I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land. ²² I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. There will be one king over all of them and they will never again be two nations or be divided into two kingdoms. ²³ They will no longer defile themselves with their idols and vile images or with any of their offenses, for I will save them from all their sinful backsliding,^[b] and I will cleanse them. They will be my people, and I will be their God.
~~~~~~
Help me understand how the restoration of Israel back to their land and into spiritual covenant with God, in Ez. 37, and Acts 1:6, fits into your view of the 'last days", and the final restoration of Israel, physically and spiritually, their acceptance of the  New Covenant, according to Ez. 37: Heb. 8. 

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on April 6, 2012 at 7:01am

From Got Questions:

 

Question: "What does the Bible mean when it refers to a remnant?"

Answer: A remnant is a left-over amount from a larger portion or piece, whether it is food, material from which a garment is fashioned, or even a group of people. Although remnants could be looked upon as worthless scraps, and many times are, God assigned high value to those of His people whom He had set aside for holy purposes, those He labels as “remnants” in several places in the Bible. To begin, in Isaiah 10 the story is told of the Lord’s judgment upon the Assyrians. In Verse 12 God says: “I will punish the king of Assyria for the willful pride of his heart and the haughty look in his eyes.” He continues in Verse 17, 18: “The Light of Israel will become a fire, their Holy One a flame; in a single day it will burn and consume his thorns and his briars. The splendor of his forests and fertile fields I will completely destroy, as when a sick man wastes away.”

 

Continuing, God relates how His people will turn back to Him as a result of this tremendous display of His strength—His utter destruction of most of Assyria: “In that day the remnant of Israel, the survivors of the house of Jacob, will no longer rely on him who struck them down but will truly rely on the LORD, the Holy One of Israel. A remnant will return, a remnant of Jacob will return to the Mighty God” (Isaiah 21). He goes on to assure the remaining Israelites that they need not fear the Assyrians, for soon He will destroy them.

 

There are other remnants—those left over from a larger group—in the Bible, even though the word “remnant” isn’t used to describe them. Noah and his family were the remnant saved out of the millions on the earth before the flood (Genesis 6). Only Lot and his two daughters survived the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, a very small remnant indeed (Genesis 19). When Elijah despaired that he was the only one left in Israel who had not bowed down to idols, God assured him that He had reserved a remnant of 7000 “whose knees have not bowed down to Baal and all whose mouths have not kissed him" (1 Kings 19).

 

God’s sovereign choice as to whom He will save and whom He will not can also be seen in the New Testament, as carried through from the Old Testament: “Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: ‘Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only the remnant will be saved. For the Lord will carry out His sentence on earth with speed and finality’” (Romans 9:27-28). This implies that great multitudes of the Israelites would be cast off. If only a remnant was to be saved, many must be lost, and this was just the point which Paul was endeavoring to establish. While the word “remnant” means what is left, particularly what may remain after a battle or a great calamity, in this verse, it means a small part or portion. Out of the great multitude of the Israelites, there will be so few left as to make it proper to say that it was a mere remnant.

 

Of course, the most blessed remnant is that of the true Church, the body of Christ, chosen out of the millions who have lived and died over the centuries. Jesus made it clear that this remnant would be small when compared to the number of people on the earth throughout history. “Many” will find the way to eternal destruction, but “few” will find the way to eternal life (Matthew 7:13-14). We who believe in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior can, with great peace, rest in the fact that we belong to the “remnant.”

 

Recommended Resource: Bible Answers for Almost all Your Questions by Elmer Towns.

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on April 6, 2012 at 8:55am

M. Ann,

 

Romans 9-11 shed light on the OT passages that you refer to in your post. There are three questions that need to be answered.

 

1) Who is true Israel?

2) What is the remnant?

3) Who is referred to in the understanding of “all Israel”?

 

1) Romans 9:6-8 make it very clear that one is not part of the true Israel simply because of birth and lineage. Romans 9:6-8 state, “It is not as through God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Nor because they are descendants are they Abraham’s children. On the contrary, ‘It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.’ In other words, it is not the natural children who are God’s children, but it is the children of promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.”

2) The remnant is the portion of the nation that will be saved. Romans 9:27-28, quoting Isaiah, states, “Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only a remnant will be saved. For the lord will carry out his sentence on the earth with speed and finality”

3) Does all of Israel in Romans 11:25-32 mean every person ever born a physical Israelite? The answer as seen above and in Romans 11:1-10 is “no.” Then what can it mean? All of Israel refers to the 12 tribes who make up the whole nation, the nation that was split in to two kingdoms. All of Israel is a completed Israel with representatives (remnant) from every tribe. This is seen clearly in the Book of Revelation. Thus, the remnant represents true Israel and the twelve tribes represent all of Israel, and there will be a remnant from every tribe, all of Israel, in this context, will be saved.

 

To your point about God blinding Israel and God’s fairness if they are not saved:

Rom 9:14-21  What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!  For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'" Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

 

* Scripture used is from the NIV

Permalink Reply by RoyW on April 6, 2012 at 9:06am

Ann,

I doubt that you are going to find many on this site that does not believe in a physical restoration of Israel. We are seeing it. I hope and pray for the day that will become a spiritual restoration. However, that has not happened, as of yet, anyway. I support Israel with my vote and with my money. It would be thrilling if the nation of Israel would repent of their rejection of Jesus and admit He is the Messiah that was to come. It is not just the Jew, however, that are spiritually blind. I don't know if the entire nation will be spiritually restored or just a remnant. I suspect a remnant will be saved. I do not expect the present generation to accept Christ. I wonder if some love their positions more than they love God. That is not for me to judge but was very obvious at His first coming. Jesus rejected their Rabbinical writings which some still hold fast to today. I think sometimes we become guilty of similar tendencies. We are warned to not add to or take away from Holy Scripture. The Jews had a system so tight that by the time Jesus came, they were too far gone in their own imaginations of Law that they had to reject Christ. I wonder, if they would get rid of all those writings, would it be easier for them to accept Christ? Let's be careful not to create a system so tightly that we miss what He is doing in our midst. I am watching the developments in Israel. I wonder what is going to happen next. I praise him for the restoration that is happening. I pray for more and ultimately the acceptance of Christ. I know you do as well.

Permalink Reply by M Ann Brown on April 6, 2012 at 9:42am

When Bible speaks of a "remnant" one must determine whether it is speaking of those "alive" vs "those dead".

In Ezekiel 37, those resurrected from the grave of "unbelieving Israel' are not a remnant, but just the opposite:

^{Ez. 37:
    9} Then He said to me, “Prophesy to the breath, prophesy, son of man, and say to the breath, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD, “Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe on these slain, that they come to life.”’” ¹⁰ So I prophesied as He commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they came to life and stood on their feet,
***an exceedingly great army. ***

There is a remnant of those who have SURVIVED the destruction of the "Day of the Lord" where the population on the earth is decimated, described by the prophet spoken to "backsliding Israel"
a truely small remnant of the living "one of a city two of a family"

Jeremiah in chapter 3:

¹⁴ Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:

 ¹⁵And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding.

 ¹⁶And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the LORD, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the LORD: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit it; neither shall that be done any more.

 ¹⁷At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the LORD; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart.

 ¹⁸In those days the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have given for an inheritance unto your fathers.

 ¹⁹But I said, How shall I put thee among the children, and give thee a pleasant land, a goodly heritage of the hosts of nations? and I said, Thou shalt call me, My father; and shalt not turn away from me.

 ²⁰Surely as a wife treacherously departeth from her husband, so have ye dealt treacherously with me, O house of Israel, saith the LORD.

 ²¹A voice was heard upon the high places, weeping and supplications of the children of Israel: for they have perverted their way, and they have forgotten the LORD their God.

 ²²Return, ye backsliding children, and I will heal your backslidings. Behold, we come unto thee; for thou art the LORD our God.
~~~~~~~~~

Our Great Almighty Forgiving Gracious God, will return Israel to her land, and resurrect the one who He Himself blinded, and bring them into His covenant!

Romans 11 further explains:

 ¹⁴If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

 ¹⁵For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

 ¹⁶For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

 ¹⁷And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

 ¹⁸Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

 ¹⁹Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

 ²⁰Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

 ²¹For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

 ²²Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

 ²³And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

 ²⁴For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

 ²⁵For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

 ²⁶And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

 ²⁷For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

 ²⁸As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

 ²⁹For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

 ³⁰For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

 ³¹Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

 ³²For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Do any of you see that Paul is explaining in DETAIL why Israel does not believe and why, who was the cause of it?

   Paul says in Acts "I believe in everything written in the "Law and the Prophets".  Ezekiel is one of the major prophets.  Paul believed in the resurrection and restoration of Israel as Ezekiel teaches.

Rom. 11:32 repeats that even though God, was the cause of the UNBELIEF of Isreal, He will have mercy on them.   Can that possibly mean that he will "send them to everlasting hell fire"?

   Our God is a God of forgiveness and mercy.   He showed mercy to the Gentiles, by blinding Israel.  He will again show mercy to Israel by reblindness and restoring them, bringing them into their land and giving them His Everlasting/New Covenant.  Any doctrine that ignores these prophecies must reconsidered and corrected, in light of these scriptures, as the Bereans reported did.

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on April 6, 2012 at 9:55am

M. Ann,

 

I understand who caused their blindnes and why. I also understand that God is the Potter and is free to do with the clay as He wishes. I also percieve that you do not believe in a literal millennial kingdom (correct me if I am wrong about your millennial belief).

 

We disagree on the remnant, etc ... You are free to belive as you do, God gives you that freedom, though I believe you are wrong. There is no point in me furthering this discussion with you. We look at the same Scripture and see them differently. We could discuss it over and over, but I assume you are pretty engrained in your belief system. Thus, unless something new comes up that warrants responding to, I have nothing further to say since we will likely only go round in circles.

 

Lord Bless,

LT

Permalink Reply by Rita Cullimore on April 6, 2012 at 4:14am

LT,

What you have stated above is a wonderful explanation...and one that I agree with wholeheartedly.

Blessings.....

Rita

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Permalink Reply by RoyW on April 5, 2012 at 3:08pm

Amen. There is much talk today about second chances. I don't find that anywhere in Scripture. I just cannot imagine Jesus telling us something that would lead us to wrong conclusions. There are some things that we might have somewhat differences of opinions of but I just cannot see how it is possible to think there are other paths that lead to God. We can argue about the babies, those who have never heard but might believe - those are the kinds of things that one might discuss. But, rejecting Jesus and then expecting to get to heaven - I see no way to justify that in Scripture. Paul mourned over those who rejected Him. Why would he mourn if he knew they would eventually make it anyway? He said he would give up his own salvation. That is love and sorrow all mixed together. He knew there was no other way and faithfully reported that to us. The rejection of Jesus meant damnation. How could a man be willing to be eternally damned if it meant the salvation of his countrymen. God would have to give me the grace to make such a statement. Jesus revealed His Gospel to Paul very clearly. Paul knew the end result of rejecting Christ. I pray for their salvation. I pray that their blinded eyes might be opened. Jesus is the promised Messiah. Because of Him all my sins are washed away and I am made eternally His. I pray everyone has a very happy Easter in Him.

Ann, the word "Easter" no longer has an improper meaning here in our western culture. It doesn't matter what Constantine believed or celebrated. In America, all of us will be celebrating His resurrection. Not one who attends an Easter service will be celebrating anything other than this new life we have in Christ because of His resurrection. That just might be one we took away from the devil. haha. Blessings.

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