All About GOD - Growing Relationships with Jesus and Others
Some of the Scriptures that cause me to think that a Christian can walk away from God.
Many Christian's believe that once we are saved then we can't move away from God's salvation. There are many threads written about this. But it is some of these passages that cause to me think otherwise.
John 15
The Vine and the Branches
15 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. 5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
Matthew 25
The Parable of the Bags of Gold
14 “Again, it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted his wealth to them. 15 To one he gave five bags of gold, to another two bags, and to another one bag,[a] each according to his ability. Then he went on his journey. 16 The man who had received five bags of gold went at once and put his money to work and gained five bags more. 17 So also, the one with two bags of gold gained two more. 18 But the man who had received one bag went off, dug a hole in the ground and hid his master’s money.
19 “After a long time the master of those servants returned and settled accounts with them. 20 The man who had received five bags of gold brought the other five. ‘Master,’ he said, ‘you entrusted me with five bags of gold. See, I have gained five more.’
21 “His master replied, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master’s happiness!’
22 “The man with two bags of gold also came. ‘Master,’ he said, ‘you entrusted me with two bags of gold; see, I have gained two more.’
23 “His master replied, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master’s happiness!’
24 “Then the man who had received one bag of gold came. ‘Master,’ he said, ‘I knew that you are a hard man, harvesting where you have not sown and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25 So I was afraid and went out and hid your gold in the ground. See, here is what belongs to you.’
26 “His master replied, ‘You wicked, lazy servant! So you knew that I harvest where I have not sown and gather where I have not scattered seed? 27 Well then, you should have put my money on deposit with the bankers, so that when I returned I would have received it back with interest.
28 “‘So take the bag of gold from him and give it to the one who has ten bags. 29 For whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. 30 And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
Matthew 13
The Parable of the Sower
13 That same day Jesus went out of the house and sat by the lake. 2 Such large crowds gathered around him that he got into a boat and sat in it, while all the people stood on the shore. 3 Then he told them many things in parables, saying: “A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4 As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. 5 Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6 But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. 7 Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. 8 Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop—a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown. 9 Whoever has ears, let them hear.”
18 “Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20 The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. 22 The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful. 23 But the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.”
Matthew 13
The Parable of the Weeds
24 Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25 But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. 26 When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.
27 “The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’
28 “‘An enemy did this,’ he replied.
“The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’
29 “‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’”
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Ananda Welikala on
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Sanctified does not mean saved. It means separated for God's work like Judas Iscariot was. Judas had the same assignment given to him by Jesus Christ as He gave the other disciples for ministry. In that way he was sanctified but not saved.
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Permalink Reply by Seek on
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Sanctification is to set apart as "holy". We were sanctified by the blood of Christ (set apart), but are also being sanctified by renewing our minds and becoming more and more holy in actions.
If it meant for God's work, then what do we do with all the Scriptures on being "made" righteous by the blood of Christ?
From your preferred KJV:
1 John 5:13
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
We are saved when we believed. We are "made righteous" and given eternal life. Judah was chosen not to be holy or sanctified. He was chosen for one reason...
John 13:18
I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.
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Eph. 2:10 teaches me that I am the workmanship of God. My work in this life has already been programmed for me to do. Even the mistakes and wrong-doings are according to His plan and scheduling. When King David, a man after God's heart committed adultery with a married woman, I believe it was in God's overall plan. All that happened in the OT are for our learning.
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By saying this, it would mean God planned and created Adam and Eve specifically to fail so He could send His Son to die. And even further, He planned satan's rebellion. That satan, Adam and Eve, none us choose anything but it is all planned by God which makes us unwilling puppets instead of willing vessels. And it would have served no purpose for Him to have sent believers to share the Gospel with those who won't believe since He knows they won't believe and tells us not to cast our pearls before them.
We are God's workmanship to do as He wills but not all will receive Him. We always have a choice to do what He commands or not to. But if He plans for someone to specifically make a wrong choice then He has removed the choice before they made it.
That God KNOWS what we will do doesn't mean He plans for us to do it if it's not His will. He knows what we think in our hearts, but He patiently tries to get us to make the right choice.
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Every coin has two sides. If one side is blanked out, it's no more a valid coin. Almighty God is like a valid coin. On one side He's Merciful, Kind, Patient and ever-forgiving. On the other side He's a very stern, exacting Judge. How do we balance the two sides?
Jesus Christ was the most loving Person ever walked this planet and yet when He found people desecrating the Holy Temple making it a "Den of Thieves," He took a whip and whipped the sellers and over turned their tables in furious anger.
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Permalink Reply by Amanda on
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I understand what you mean Ananda, but I'm not really partial to the coin analogy when talking about the attributes of God because God has many attributes and it isn't that these attributes are parts of God but are truths of who God is and how God has revealed Himself to us. God is whole and not compartmentalized. I'm struggling right now with how I see God, and specifically with how I see Christ, realizing I have divided God into categories and parts. For instance, I see Jesus as the lamb of God but it's hard for me to see Jesus as described in the Book of Revelation. I struggle with understanding Jesus as being fully man and fully God. I believe He is but don't understand it as well as I'd like. Perhaps this link will help clarify what I mean to say.
http://www.theopedia.com/attributes-of-god -
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The Creator God of Pharaoh could have made him surrender to HIS will. But He didn't. God let Pharaoh use his will to refuse to let God's people go to the PROMISED Land--Israel aka Canaan. This teaches me that even though God is fully able to make anybody surrender to His will 100%, He has decided to let mankind use thier own will, most of the time. The angels who came down to destroy Sodom needed to pull God's people out of the city by force when they refused to get out of the city. When it comes to the children of Almighty God, He does everything to keep us "in line." That includes making us OBEY His will no matter what. God leads us who are truly born again, in three ways: Thru' circumstances of life, thru' the Word of God aka the Holy Scriptures, and thru' His still small voice. It's very important to find out if the VOICE is His voice or Satan's voice. Satan LOVES to mislead us by impersonation. If the voice inside us is "loud" and says: "Do it right now...don't wait...you have no time to be patient, then, beware!
God's voice is GENTLE and says: "Wait on me." We must learn to be still and wait upon God patiently. Waiting on God never fails.
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Ok...but I don't see what one has to do with the other.
IE: God is "Merciful, Kind, Patient and ever-forgiving" but also "a very stern, exacting Judge"
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"When King David...committed adultery...I believe it was in God's overall plan."
To me, the first says He patiently waits for us to turn back to Him, meaning we still have the option to choose. The second says He plans for us to do the wrong we do, not that we choose to do wrong but that we were created to do wrong. So we don't have a choice to turn back to Him if He doesn't plan for us to do so. -
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What you seemed to be saying is God planned for someone to do something. But what you said about Pharoah is more what I was thinking. IE: God didn't take Pharaoh's choice or plan for him to do what he did, but He did know what was in Pharoah's heart and planned to use what He knew Pharoah would do, to bring His plan to pass.
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Ananda,
The Creator God of Pharaoh could have made him surrender to HIS will. But He didn't. God let Pharaoh use his will to refuse to let God's people go to the PROMISED Land--Israel aka Canaan. This teaches me that even though God is fully able to make anybody surrender to His will 100%, He has decided to let mankind use thier own will, most of the time.
I agree for the most part with this. Everything that God created is under God's righteous decree. No one, not Pharaoh, not Judas, not Jacob, not Esau, not even Satan and demons can do anything that isn't permitted by God. The irony of it is simply this: everything that is allowed by God, that created beings do, brings about the eternal plan of God, and all to His Glory. The basis of God's wrath against Pharaoh is the same as God's wrath against the Gentiles as mentioned in Romans 1:18-32: he suppressed the knowledge of God; he was an idolater. God's wrath is against the lost and, like Pharaoh, when they continue to choose their sin over God, then, like pharaoh, they risk the hardening of their hearts. This is frightening to see and know, and it should be, IMO. For instance, how is it that God says in the scriptures thou shalt not kill but then makes a righteous decree in the same scriptures that the lamb of God be slain? My point is that it's plain to see that it's within God's will for things to happen, such as sin itself, even though those things are forbidden by God but that God will use them all to His glory.
The angels who came down to destroy Sodom needed to pull God's people out of the city by force when they refused to get out of the city. When it comes to the children of Almighty God, He does everything to keep us "in line." That includes making us OBEY His will no matter what.
I agree that God wants us to align with God's will and uses divine discipline when we disobey and, at times, over rules our will completely. Jonah's rebellion and God sending a big fish, is a good example of a man's will being over ruled by his Creator.
God leads us who are truly born again, in three ways: Thru' circumstances of life, thru' the Word of God aka the Holy Scriptures, and thru' His still small voice. It's very important to find out if the VOICE is His voice or Satan's voice. Satan LOVES to mislead us by impersonation. If the voice inside us is "loud" and says: "Do it right now...don't wait...you have no time to be patient, then, beware!
I agree with this. I don't imagine Holy Spirit as nagging and coercing, but I believe all those who are truly born again do have eternal security. Plainly, we are consciously led in many ways, but I also believe a lot of God's guidance is unconscious, meaning God is leading us but we aren't always aware of it.
I see God determining circumstances at times to get us where God wants us and at such times we find ourselves wondering how we got there. God's plan and our plan are often two different things. This is true of being born again, too. No one just consciously decides on his or her own to get born again. God both initiates and enables the process, drawing people into it, awakening sleepers with the light.
God's voice is GENTLE and says: "Wait on me." We must learn to be still and wait upon God patiently. Waiting on God never fails.
I like this.
Whichever side of this debate on eternal security or losing salvation that one falls upon, there is something that all believers can agree upon and that is that God Has Made Himself Known and People Are Without Excuse.
All mankind has been given over to receive the due penalty and they know it. They know the righteous decree of God but they suppress the obvious knowledge of God.
But there's an answer to man's problem with God.
The Gospel of Christ.
The word about Christ is shared with non-Christians to "un-suppress" their memory and to wake them and to open their hearts and minds and eyes to accept truth. Of course, we are relying on the Holy Spirit to enlighten them, knowing we can't convince or persuade anyone ourselves. Without the personal convicting and work of Holy Spirit, no person will turn to Christ.
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I concur whole-heartedly with all you have written!
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Are you sure? Lol
I'm neither Calvinist nor Arminian, but as others have joked, I'm sure the Calvinist would accuse me of being Arminian and vice versa. I admit I have beliefs that fall on both sides of the two camps. One of the most difficult things for me to understand was how it could ever be true that man's resistance to God and man's disobedience is a manifestation of God's will. I thought that would mean God was the creator of sin, and I heard people making that argument. However, permitting disobedience doesn't mean God isn't all-powerful or isn't Sovereign nor does it mean God condones sin or causes sin.
Louis Berkhof says, "This, if true, would naturally be an insuperable objection, for God cannot be the author of sin. This follows equally from Scripture, Ps. 92:15; Eccl. 7:29; Jas. 1:13; I John 1:5, from the law of God which prohibits all sin, and from the holiness of God. But the charge is not true; the decree merely makes God the author of free moral beings, who are themselves the authors of sin. God decrees to sustain their free agency, to regulate the circumstances of their life, and to permit that free agency to exert itself in a multitude of acts, of which some are sinful. For good and holy reasons He renders these sinful acts certain, but He does not decree to work evil desires or choices efficiently in man. The decree respecting sin is not an efficient but a permissive decree, or a decree to permit, in distinction from a decree to produce, sin by divine efficiency. (E.
Objections to the Doctrine of the Decrees.) https://www.biblicaltraining.org/library/divine-decrees-general/sys...
I think Calvinism errs in trying to make the certainty of God's foreknowledge always be synonymous with necessity. Saying that something will certainly occur or is going to certainly occur isn't the same thing as saying it must occur. However, God does have a plan and is keeping it on track and bringing it to pass and it is established. It will not be thwarted. So, of course some things must happen and those things indeed do happen and are certain as well as necessary, and it's just as true that other things will happen and those things indeed do happen and are certain to happen, too, as foreknown by God but not necessarily necessitated by God.
I think Arminius is wrong in saying God's foreknowledge only makes all things certain in the sense that they will happen for indeed there are things that must happen, things decreed by God.
But I'm no authority on the subject and am still learning.
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