All About GOD - Growing Relationships with Jesus and Others
S.O.A.P. 6
Greetings all,
I will continue to try something on TheNET. I would like to see if we can engage in a Bible study using the forums. I hope to simulate a small group setting, but realize that there will be lag time. Here are the parameters that we will work with ... and this is open to everyone.
1) We are attempting to work our way through the gospel of John.
2) We will not tolerate negative comments made about a person or persons.
3) We are using the S.O.A.P. approach which = Scripture - Observation - Application - Prayer.
... 3a) Scripture text from the Gospel of John using KJV (no copyright attached)
... 3b)Observations about the particular text. What is being said, what is going on, who is involved and what might be the points being made?
... 3c) Application of the text/teaching to our lives today.
... 3d) Prayer pertaining to that which we have sought to discern.
4) It is appropriate to ask questions along the way.
5) I operating as the facilitator and teacher of this online group/class, but want the open participation of others.
6) At the end of each week (Friday's) I will close the current one and start a new one.
This weeks discussion:
Joh 3:10-21 KJV Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? (11) Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. (12) If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? (13) And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. (14) And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: (15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. (16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (17) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. (18) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (19) And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. (20) For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. (21) But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Amanda on
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I think much of the confusion regarding works comes from the misunderstanding of the role that works play in the life of a believer. The new birth is the beginning of the new life. "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come" (2 Cor 5:17, ESV).
The Holy Spirit is at work in the process of denying self and coming into alignment with God's will and not our own will. This is a lifelong process. The process of sanctification is a lifestyle, more or less. God is bringing His children into alignment with Him.
Of course, we still have liberties, and, as was mentioned in yesterday's sermon on Psalm 23, we are sheep and this isn't a compliment. Some of the things that were mentioned concerning sheep is that sheep aren't the smartest of animals, and sheep are helpless when alone, are easily frightened, are timid and feeble-minded, and they can't find their own way back home but are prone to stray and wander and drift.
In fact, God must make us lie down in green pastures and beside still waters -- and the pastor mentioned that this can come from various trials and troubles in our lives, such as heartbreak or illness. God will work all things together for the good of those in His pasture. God makes us lie down at times, but generally God won't override our liberties. Yet, God has promised not to lose one of His, to keep us all in His pasture.
The Good Shepherd is in control, not we!
We still battle sinful flesh. God must bring us into alignment with His ways. The flesh doesn't want anything to do with God's ways. If I'm not mistaken, LT often states it that way, too.
The Lord is our Shepherd. He protects us from evil. In his message, yesterday at church, the pastor used Hebrews 2:14-15 to go along with Psalm 23:4-5.
14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— 15 and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death (ESV).
We aren't still imprisoned, waiting to see if we will be pardoned, based upon being judged for works. If we are in Christ, we are free! Jesus has freed us by His finished work of death, burial, and resurrection. Now He is leading us home.
I'm not sure how works become seen as a way of causing salvation, but it is very commonly taught, as I've already mentioned in another comment in this discussion. What is needed is faith in God to be brought into alignment with God, and faith is a gift from God and faith grows, but we are fully saved apart from works because of the work of Christ on our behalf, as our Substitute.
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Permalink Reply by RoyW on
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Amen. Sounds like you have a really good preacher there. Better hang on to him. That Hebrews 2 and Ps 23 combo is pretty good. I am one of those dumb sheep as well. Yet, better than being a sheep is the knowledge of knowing that I am saved. He has not just led me to these waters, He has given me this water to drink. I was so thirsty, I could not resist. :)
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I found this article last night that fits nicely with the message. http://www.gotquestions.org/Lord-is-my-Shepherd.html
I have Max Lucado's Book, Traveling Light, but not his book Safe in the Shepherd's Arms. I'm going to order it today.
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Permalink Reply by ribbon on
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Thank you Richard, I am glad that you are active in this John 3: 10-21 study. I am copying and pasting your postings to hopefully learn on this subject.
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Permalink Reply by Richard L. Broch, Sr. on
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Dear Confused (Janie),
The Book of John is just chock full of great stuff that everybody needs to peruse through.
May you enjoy and employ................
Grace and Peace.
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Richard,
You stated: "Most people miss the true meaning of John 3:16 when it says "whosoever believeth in Him...." they think it as an intellectual belief only......without doing the truth that is part of "believing"."
What kind of works are we saved by? What is the truth that we must do as a part of believing? I admit, I'm one of the ones who isn't getting it. What I get is that, after being born again, works (living the Christian life) follows. Yet, living the life and walking the talk, aren't causing the person to stay saved. They are evidence of salvation and of true belief. Some call it faith in action. I wouldn't call it proof that one is truly saved simply because of the Matthew 7:22-23 where it's obviously speaking of the religious who think they can justify themselves before God.
I'm still trying to sort out what you mean. Thanks in advance for replying and clarifying.
If you don't want to answer, it's OK.
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I think all Christians should do the truth of God. Isnt that a good thing? the right thing? I don't get it ,that some think that ,that is being saved by works. I am not understanding because when I read different places in these forums when someone mentions things like loving God , giving God their all, trusting God bowing down to God , obeying Gods commands ext ect... They are told that they aren't saved by works. It seems like babes in Christ might start feeling guilty for wanting to give their all to the Lord from fear it may be trying to be saved by works. I have taken every thing that Richard said and am trying to soak it in. Especially the part where he menyioned the intellectual belief. I try to believe that way I think. I should trust God and His truth and except Him and be led to believing spiritually. I am a slow leaner. It is my hope that I can learn about spiritual believing and spiritual faith. The believing and faith as is in the above scripture.
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The part I'm seeking to understand is how we are justified. Are we justified by faith? Are we justified by believing and obeying God and His commands? If we aren't saved by our own works, then what are the works that save us? Those who are in Christ need not fear giving all to the Lord to serve Him, but are they to do it to be saved and to stay saved? Or because they are saved?
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Maybe its because they love and trust the Lord and have the desire to serve and obey Him "because" He saved them. I don't know Amanda, I don't know anything. What I do know is I don't serve and obey. But, I want to and I want to by "believing". I cant believe without Him can I? I cant do it by myself and isn't this where the spiritual belief should come in? I remember a few years ago I was grieving plus going through many trials. I felt more alone then I had ever felt in all my life. I prayed to God to please send someone a "Christian" to my doors so to talk to me about God. I am not sure now why it was that it was so important that I wanted this prayer answered. I remember being so angry that I spilled this out on Carla. I expected Carla to pacify me I guess. But, instead she said ... well if someone were to come the door .. would you open it? I cant rememver what my answer was but she was right to ask. She knew me well enough that I most likely would not have opened my door to a stranger because of my anxieties. So, I mentio this because ... did God not answer my prayer because He didn't want me to have anybody. Or did He know I wouldn't do my part and open the door? I think we may make excuse about works because e don't want to do our part. I cant bring myself to open the door and go to church. Isnt that wrong? Shouldn't I put God first before my anxieties? If I were to put Him first... would this too be wrong because that may be me thinking I am saved by works? Shouldn't I be as Richard said "doing the truth"? And yes I know if I were to forget self and go to church that that isn't what saves me.
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I haven't said we aren't to live the Christian life or do the works that we have been created to do -- we are new creations and there is a lfestyle that goes with the new creation, naturally. We are to seek to serve God and to come into alignment with His ways and His will. No, we can't do it in our own strength. We are dependent upon Him, just as sheep depend upon the shepherd to nourish and water them, protect them, lead them, etcetera.
For 27 years I have walked down the path of what some call legalism. I served God to stay saved. If it's legalism for me, why isn't it legalism for others?
I seek the truth, too. I want to know if it pleases God to work very hard at keeping His commandments in an effort to justify myself as obedient in His sight. For years and years, that's what I thought. So if that's the truth, then I want to stick with it.
Whether people call the works my own works or His works and His ways, they are still works. I don't want to do my own works, and, in fact, I've never seen any of the good works I've done in my whole life as my own works, but as works that He created me to do - His works.
You said, basically, and I'm paraphrasing, that people might become afraid that they are trying to be saved by works if they do any good works. We are to respond in faith. Those who aren't responding aren't showing true faith. My fear is of assuming that my relationship with Jesus is based on what I do for Him rather than what He did for me. I fear not having the right foundation. I want to be saved, not lost. I want to spend eternity with Jesus, who died for me. I want to see Him and fall down at His feet and worship Him for all of eternity, praising and blessing Him.
We must grow spiritually. As for your anxieties, the sheep analogy is perfect. Sheep are very timid. He is the Good Shepherd. He will and is working with you according to your needs.
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Greetings group,
Actually, Sister Amanda, I think you are doing a good job of answering your questions.........yourself.
They ( the works) are evidence of salvation and of true belief. Some call it faith in action.
That's what I call it, too - FAITH IN ACTION. James 2:26, " For just as the body without the Spirit is dead, so also is faith without works is dead." (N.A.S.B.).
These works are a natural outpouring of our love, praise, worship, and active faith, in our walk with God, Amanda.
I know...and I think, you know....this is true.
Allowing the Holy Spirit to produce the nine fruit in us brings God glory.
And anybody who thinks they can "fool" God with their good deeds without faith, and without a true spiritual belief.......will hear the words of Jesus - "I never knew you."
I think all Christians should do the truth of God. Isn't that a good thing? The right thing?
You betcha it is, Janie. Truth.....is the key.
I firmly believe that when a person gives themselves to God........they must become a changed person to this world.......because one is changed by being involved in sanctification.....set apart from the world to Christ.
That's all for now.
Grace and Peace.
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No, Richard, my question for you was what kind of works are we saved by? The way I see it is that we aren't saved by any works. Also, the way I see it is that after being born again, the works we do aren't keeping us saved, either. So, no, I didn't answer my own question which I asked of you. I simply stated my belief and had asked for your belief.
You stated: "You stated: "Most people miss the true meaning of John 3:16 when it says "whosoever believeth in Him...." they think it as an intellectual belief only......without doing the truth that is part of "believing"."
I asked, What kind of works are we saved by? What is the truth that we must do as a part of believing?
If your answer is that we aren't saved by works, then we are in agreement. Thank you.
John 3:16 doesn't mention works, but mentions believing. You stated we must do truth as a part of believing. That was confusing me.
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