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Once saved always saved?
Many believe that once you are saved you are always saved and that you cannot lose your salvation or be rejected by God.
What is the scriptural basis for “Once saved always saved”? Does not the responsibility lie with the believer how he/she conduct themselves after initially being saved?
I see many scriptures that say/imply other than once saved always saved:
Old Testament:
Num 14:11 Then the LORD said to Moses: "How long will these people reject Me? And how long will they not believe Me, with all the signs which I have performed among them?
Num 14:12 I will strike them with the pestilence and disinherit them..."
1Sa 15:23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, And stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because you have rejected the word of the LORD, He also has rejected you from being king."
1Sa 28:6 And when Saul inquired of the LORD, the LORD did not answer him, either by dreams or by Urim or by the prophets.
1Sa 28:7 Then Saul said to his servants, "Find me a woman who is a medium, that I may go to her and inquire of her…"
Pro 2:13 …From those who leave the paths of uprightness To walk in the ways of darkness…
New Testament:
Joh 17:12 …Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition…
Act 8:9 But there was a certain man called Simon, who previously practiced sorcery…
Act 8:13 …Then Simon himself also believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip, and was amazed, seeing the miracles and signs which were done…
Act 8:20 …But Peter said to him, "Your money perish with you, because you thought that the gift of God could be purchased with money!
Act 8:21 You have neither part nor portion in this matter, for your heart is not right in the sight of God.
Act 8:22 Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you.
Act 8:23 For I see that you are poisoned by bitterness and bound by iniquity."
1Pe 4:17 For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?
1Pe 4:18 Now "IF THE RIGHTEOUS ONE IS SCARCELY SAVED, WHERE WILL THE UNGODLY AND THE SINNER APPEAR?"
Jas 5:19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back,
Jas 5:20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.
2Ti 2:17 …Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort,
2Ti 2:18 who have strayed concerning the truth…
2Ti 2:24 …And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient,
2Ti 2:25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth,
2Ti 2:26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.
2Pe 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
2Pe 2:22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: "A DOG RETURNS TO HIS OWN VOMIT," and, "a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire."
Heb 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
Heb 10:29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
Heb 6:6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by ScribeD on
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The key reference there is "if thou forsake him..." That's radically different than breaking the commands and committing sin.
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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on
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>>Dear David, when you say the verses Demian quoted have been "successfully debunked", is it really possible for anyone to debunk God's Holy Word? I always heard of phony stories and myths being debunked, but not scripture!
Dear LB,
Are you ever gonna let me have a nice evening without having to type so much because you have placed another longgggg post I have to debunk hahaha oh man I stink hu? hahaha but I crack me up though hahaha ok ok ok I will stop clowning around but I had tooo much sugar today.
Oh sister, sister, sister, it is not God's word I debunk, but the erroneous interpretation some come up with, primarily by taking things out of context.
So I am not that insane or silly to try to debunk the eternal word of God but your interpretation of it I can debunk all day long till the break of dawn hahaaha in this topic here. :)
>>We still have free will, and if a Christian's attitude toward God deteriorates so much that he or she wilfully forsakes God in rebellion and disobedience, they can expect God to cast them off forever.
All the above is your deductions of scripture because of the wrong indoctrination you where taught and any verses you try to make back up your false understanding of the word when dealing with eternal security - By God's grace and for His glory - I can debunk, but for the most if you notice I been absent from this here discussion, oh I been reading and can debunk everything being use here to say salvation can be lost but like Scribe, Michael, Carla, LT, Roy etc... Have mentioned either in this discussion or many others about this subject and other ones that have to do with secondary issues, the topic has been debated for 2000 years and for the most no one changes anyone else, since it is God who gives the increase, right, yeah, that is right. I always have fun with this discussions cause hey we are to rejoice in everything, but sometimes I do feel like screaming aaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh because of the horrible interpretations I encounter and is then that I debunk the person’s logic etc, but not the word. No one, not one person here can cut and paste where I state - I will or have debunked scripture, but the wrong understanding of what the scripture means, now I am commanded to do. :)
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Permalink Reply by David Abel on
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Hi LB
If I may say something here, if you don't mind. I have been following everything till now, but quiet from my side as I have been engaging some trusted spiritual brothers and sisters of mine back home, and am still getting more info and allowing the Holy Spirit to direct me.
While there are lots of scriptures confirming God knowing those who are His and keeping them, you should be careful whose doctrine you end up following at the end. Much of the OSAS doctrines, while pulling out many "feel good" scriptures, tend to deter one from the effort and work (please understand my biblical use of the word "work" here) involved in the process of making it till the end, which entails heeding the warnings, following the instructions, fighting the flesh, fighting the devil, building up Godly character, etc, which is our part to do, yes by His enablement, but our part to do nonetheless. On one side there must be complete trust, confidence, reliance and assurance in God, which means staying close to Him and His Fathership role in our lives; and on the other side, at the same time distrusting ourselves and the flesh, even our own thoughts and emotions, and indeed taking heed, lest thinking we stand we fall. We need the best of both worlds. Take the good that OSAS offers, discard the rest. Take the good that anti-OSAS offers, discard the rest. This is easier said than done, but is possible. Do not be swayed in what you feel fully convicted of, but add more Godly knowledge and understanding to it by God's direction and leading.
The following is not for you LB, but my further thoughts on things as they stand on this subject:
I understand now that the message of OSAS is directly linked to God's foreknowing/predestination, but there are so many different interpretations/docrines on that as well. One thing that helps me stay focused that God does not foreknow/predestinate according to some way off, but long held, views is by doing the following: to add what certain doctines believe to certain scriptures and see if it ties in with the original, examples as follows:
Incorrect doctrine:
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the ones He predestined, chose to save beforehand, that He gave His only begotten Son, that the ones He predestined, chose to save beforehand that believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Original:
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that He gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Incorrect doctrine:
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to the ones He predestined, chose to save beforehand, not willing that the ones He predestined, chose to save beforehand should perish, but that the ones He predestined, chose to save beforehand should come to repentance.
Original:
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Incorrect doctrine:
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all those chosen by God to be destroyed to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all the ones He predestined, chose to save beforehand unto justification of life.
Original:
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
In the words of a preacher that shared his message in a very "feel good" video with a very OSAS/Calvinistic slant, posted somewhere in this discussion, he asked what the worth of your confession of faith is before God, and he answered, "Absolutely nothing." This was used to come against a verse used by anti-OSAS proponents, but does well in noting that NOBODY'S confession of faith is worth anything in the eyes of God, who will alone determine whether you are saved or not, irrespective of how safe/saved and confident you feel. I believe that many OSAS proponents themselves will be surprised at the end of the day, when many of them themselves will fall into the boat of God saying to them, "Depart from me I never knew you", despite many confessions here on earth that they are definitely saved. Only God truly knows the hearts and minds of all.
God Bless,
David Abel
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LB -
>>Would God ever predestine anyone to be saved if he knew (in advance) they would later turn back and forsake Him?
I have no idea sis. I do not know the mind of God.
>>These are specific questions that need to be answered by the Scriptures (not by man's reasoning).
You are using Man’s reasoning here or do you know the mind of God about the questions you asked when scripture does not touch on that scenario. Sister please show me where you found the bible to say “Yes” to your question.
>> Can a member of God's elect commit sin if they choose to?
Of course - God has granted us liberties and given us the ability to chose.
>>Does a true Christian have the ability to blaspheme the Holy Spirit?
First a definition of Blaspheme would have to be looked at. What does it mean to you, to blaspheme the Holy Spirit?
>>Does God rob us of free will after we are saved, making rebellion impossible?
We are either slaves to Christ or to sin. Rebellion is always possible as far as God allows in each individual person, according to His good pleasure. We belong to God and He corrects his own.
>>Does that mean that unrepented sin in our lives no longer separates us from God?
There is nothing in the universe that can separate us from the love of God when we are His children. God is not a man and He does not act like you or I would. Your logic is flawed.
>>It should!
Show me with scripture please and not with your human reasoning.
>>So what I am asking is, doesn't God hate sin and rebellion in a Christian's life, and is he not bound to do something drastic about it? Does being His son or daughter make our sin or rebellion easier for God to put up with?
God is only bound to do according to His good pleasure. God has the right as potter to do whatever he wants with each individual person that belongs to him, that means ALL OF HUMANITY, for all of humanity belongs to Him.
>>If he chastens us, and we die without having repented of sin and rebellion in our lives, must God treat us better than a sinner who dies with unrepented sin in his or her life?
Yes! Yes God has chosen to treat us differently than He treats those who are not his. That is extremely obvious in scripture.
>>Is Christianity a license to sin without fear?
How many times must we tell you know one teaches that here 0r believes that?
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All that Repent and believe in Christ will be saved. A contrite heart God will never turn way.
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Permalink Reply by margaret on
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hosea 14 :4i will heal their backsliding, i will love them freely: for mine anger is turned away from him.
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Family,
I want you guys to know something - I love and appreciate every one of you. Even those who completely disagree with my biblical understanding for what does it matter if we have our theology correct and don't have love. Exactly, our theology then means peanuts. As I go back, as I tend to do from time to time, to read my responses, I see I take a lot of liberties when addressing many of you and that is because I truly love you. When I call you family or beloved or sis/bro, is not just Christian lingo I am using but a reality to me. Whether you like me, love me or not, if you confess my Lord, My King as your Savior then you are my family and as such I do not look to offend you, but to edify you, but as I read my responses I see that when I am very short in time I give short and very direct posts that can be viewed as harsh by many and I just feel from our Lord to share my heart about this because you matter to me. If you didn't I wouldn't care, but I do care very much - for every one of you.
So know that is never my intentions to hurt offend or clown anyone, but I can be kind of goofy so bear with me and know, I love you guys. If there are areas you think I can improve on do not hesitate to shoot me an email/message and bless me.
It is a pleasure to know you and share with you all.
My God richly bless you and your homes.
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Permalink Reply by Carla on
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Hey Bro.. I had my bible open to 1 Corinthians 13 as i pulled up your message.. coincidence?
This is an important reminder for me.
You are a blessing here.. In Him, Carla
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Permalink Reply by Richard L. Broch, Sr. on
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Greetings in Christ, Brothers and Sisters,
I struggled for years with this issue of a believer backsliding to the point of losing salvation. But now, I`m sure in my heart of the truth of the matter.
It`s just as LT and David Velasquez have posted.
These people never really believed in the first place. They are the ones Jesus is talking about in Matthew 7:21-23. I think there`s a wide range of these folks, from "thought" they were o.k., to those who are false prophets.
Jesus gives us some varieties in His parable of the sower (Matthew, chapter 13).
Two of the best verses (I think) cover the fake believers: 1 Corinthians 15:1-2,"Now I make known to you, brethren, to the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, (2) by which also you are saved, IF you hold fast the word which I preached to you, UNLESS YOU BELIEVED IN VAIN."
Vain = worthless, empty, hollow, without force or effect (New World Dictionary).
They heard the gospel, they were going to church, but they didn`t believe it in their hearts, for whatever reason.
Grace and Peace.
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Thank you my Lord and Savior, My King and Lover - thank you for your faithfulness.
GOD IS FAITHFUL!!!!
We live in a world where we fail one another and even those folks who swore never to leave us nor forsake us, no matter what comes our way, either by our own wrong choices or by God allowing the trial to come our way ---- DO LEAVE AND FORSAKE US.
I find no better truth, no sweeter thought -- no better reality --- nothing compares to the unfailing love of the Lord.
In a world full of uncertainties and storms you can always count on one entity no matter what!!!!
YOU CAN ALWAYS COUNT ON THE LORD. HE NEVER TURNS HIS BACK ON THOSE HE CALLED AND SAVED. HE NEVER LEAVES YOU NOR FORSAKES YOU REGARDLESS OF THE PREDICAMENT YOU FIND YOURSELF IN.
WHEN YOUR FREINDS AND THE WORLD HAS GIVEN UP ON YOU, WHEN YOUR LOVES ONES HAVE GIVEN UP ON YOU, WHEN THE CHURCH HAS GIVEN UP ON YOU, WHEN YOU HAVE GIVEN UP ON YOUSELF. GOD REMAINS, HE ALONE WILL NEVER STOP CALLING YOU WITH HIS LOVE, HE WILL LEAVE THE 99 AND GO LOOK (AND BEING THAT HE IS GOD - HE WILL FIND YOU AND RESCUE YOU) FOR YOU, FOR HIS NAME'S SAKE; NOT BECAUSE WE DESERVE IT OR EARN IT IN ANYWAY, BUT SIMPLY BECAUSE HE IS ABLE TO KEEP US. HE FINISHES WHAT HE STARTS IN US. GOD IS GOOD!!!!
THAT MY FRIENDS IS THE MOST BEAUTIFUL POSITIVE THOUGHT and TRUTH ONE CAN EVER COME TO KNOW, UNDERSTAND AND MOST OF ALL BELIEVE AND APPROPIATE FOR ONE'S SELF. DV
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