All About GOD - Growing Relationships with Jesus and Others
Losing Salvation?
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If you could not give up your salvation voluntarily, then once you become saved you could then go ahead and do whatever you wish. You could steal, murder, cheat, lie, never pray, reject the scriptures, lead others astray, blaspheme God from morning to night - do anything that is sinful, rebellious, and against the laws of God. And you could do all this never confessing and never repenting. To believe that "once saved, always saved" is believing that one has a "license to sin" after the person is born again."
LOSING YOUR SALVATION -http://robertwells.tripod.com/losingsalvation.html
YOU CAN'T LOSE YOUR SALVATION OR HAVE IT TAKEN AWAY BUT.......
When you were saved you turned to God. Turning to God means the you have committed your life to trusting and obeying God. In John 1:6-7 it says, "If we claim to have fellowship with Him, yet we walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, then we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son, purifies us from all sin."
According to this text, "If we walk in the darkness, then we do not live by the truth." If our heart is not repentant when we sin, if our attitude is one of disobedience to the Laws and Commandments of God, if we turn away from God, if we live a life of sin, if we decide the effort to lead a Godly life is not worth it, if the actions of our lives indicate that we no longer desire to be one of God's children, then we don't lose our salvation, and salvation isn't taken from us, but we through our own free will, take our salvation and give it back to God. We tell God we don't want it. We give it up!!!
Ezekiel 3:20 "If the righteous turn from their righteousness and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling block before them, they shall die".
If you could not give up your salvation voluntarily, then once you become saved you could then go ahead and do whatever you wish. You could steal, murder, cheat, lie, never pray, reject the scriptures, lead others astray, blaspheme God from morning to night - do anything that is sinful, rebellious, and against the laws of God. To believe that "once saved, always saved" is believing that one has a "license to sin" after the person is born again."
So ask yourself this question. What is the only way to gain eternal salvation? There are a great many verses that tell us the answer. Below are just two of them:
Ephesians 2:8-9 "By this undeserved kindness, indeed, you have been saved through faith, and this not owing to you, it is God's gift."
1Peter 1:5 "Those who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed on the last day.
God makes salvation completely available through Jesus Christ - and not only to specific individuals, but to all who will receive and believe in Jesus Christ as savior. Jesus made this very clear when he said, "Whoever believes in me would not perish but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) The word "whoever" includes everybody. No person is excluded from the opportunity to believe and receive everlasting life.
Your relationship with God, as well as your eternal salvation are based upon faith. Faith that Jesus Christ is who, and what He says he is. And thus if you are committing those sins mentioned in the above paragraph, then you simply don't believe who Jesus is. A person practicing the above sinful actions, certainly indicates that the person no longer has any faith or belief in Jesus Christ.
In other words you can not walk in the darkness unrepentant and still hold onto your salvation. Keep in mind that repentance is much more than stopping the very act of committing those sins that you are asking forgiveness for. Repentance is actually the act of turning away from doing those sins, of not committing them anymore, of changing your life in such a way as you no longer want or desire to commit those sins. You are the one who decides whether to walk in the light or the darkness. God gave you the free will to make your own choices. If you decide to walk in the darkness then your salvation will not be taken away from you, nor will you lose your salvation. No, what you will do is give up your salvation. You will be telling God that your salvation "is not worth the effort it takes to walk in the light". That you do not wish to have his gift of eternal salvation. That you want to make it through this life on your own without any help from God. That you will follow the ways of the world rather than the ways of our Lord. So your own free will determines whether you are going to keep your salvation or give it up. God allows your eternal future to be in your own hands.
Since your own free will is what determines your eternal destiny, then it is very important to note that God will not force anyone to come to him. He is not going to get down on his knees and beg you to believe him, trust him, or accept him. Nor will he force you to love him or demand your obedience. The choice is up to each one of us whether to surrender our lives and our hearts to God or to refuse his love and his blessings. If you don't want any part of Jesus Christ then he is willing to accept that decision since it was made by you through your own free will.
Our Lord did tell us that once we are saved, once we are looking to him for everything, once we have surrendered completely to him, then no one could snatch us away from him.
John 10:28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand."
So you can't be snatched way, but you sure can walk away.
There are a great many examples of this in the Bible but my favorite is in the book of Mark. It has to do with the story about the time Jesus arrived by boat to a town where he met a demon possessed man who was living in a graveyard. (You can read the entire story in Mark 5:1-21, and it is a great example of people exercising their free will and possibly putting their eternal salvation in jeopardy).
The Bible mentions that this demon possessed man was unusually fierce and dangerous, so much so that the townspeople could not even use the roads in fear that they would be harmed or even killed by this demon possessed man. The demons who resided in this man recognized Jesus and even talked with Jesus, and they knew that Jesus had the power to expel them from the man. So the demons seeing a herd of pigs in the distance, told Jesus that if he was going to expel them from this man, then would Jesus allow the demons to enter into the herd of pigs. So Jesus expelled the demons and the demons left the man and entered into the pigs. Suddenly the pigs realized something was terribly wrong and every single pig rushed over the cliff to their death. The pigs evidently realized that they would rather be dead than to have those demons living within them.
Now the pig herders saw all this happening and they went to the town and told everyone all the details. Verse 17 tells of the townspeople response. "Then the people began to beg Jesus to leave their area." So the response of the townspeople was to tell Jesus to get out of there because they were holding Jesus responsible for the destruction of a whole herd of pigs. They were furious at Jesus because of this economic loss. All that these people could do was to scream at him because they no longer had this herd of pigs. So you can see that the people's only concern was the economic loss of the pigs.
What is really interesting is Jesus's response.
Jesus didn't try to explain to the townspeople that they no longer had to worry about this very dangerous demon possessed man. That he was no longer a threat to their safety. Nor did Jesus ask them if they wanted to know why this formerly demon possessed man was now able to sit there quietly, fully dressed, and in his right state of mind. Nor did he try to tell them that if he could expel demons from this man, then just think of the demons that he could expel from the rest of the townspeople. Neither did Jesus ask the people if they wanted to find out more about this man who could expel demons or why he even did what he did, or why he even came there in the first place. And Jesus certainly didn't argue with the people that the price of the pigs was rather small compared to their peace of mind and their eternal future. Jesus didn't even ask these people if they wanted to learn about the one who sent him. Jesus didn't do any of these things because he could see that the only thing any of these people really cared about was the economic loss of the pigs. They had their minds all made up and money was the number one thing in their lives. They exerted their free will and told Jesus to leave town and leave town now. They had exercised their free will.
Using their own free will, those people wanted nothing to do with Jesus. Their only interest was in worldly things and because of that, they told Jesus to hit the road and go some place else and kill pigs. Jesus knew exactly what was in their hearts, and that their minds were closed to anything that Jesus had to say. So what did Jesus do? Jesus simply turned around, boarded the boat and proceeded across the water and went into his own city. Without a word, he simply turned and left, and very possibly took with him their eternal salvation.
John 15:1-2 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He removes every branch in me that bears no fruit. Every branch that bears fruit he prunes to make it bear more fruit".
John 15:6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned".
1 Corinthians 10:12 "Therefore let him who thinks he is standing, beware, that he does not fall".
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on
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Amanda,
The answer to your question is found in a whole other doctrine called "The Lostness of Man." There are those who believe that everyone will have an opportunity to be saved int his life. I disagree. The lostness of man teaches we start lost and must here the gospel, which is the power of God unto salvation for everyone who believes. Romans 10 tells us the following:
RO 10:14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!" 16 But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our message?" 17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.
This is the motivation for sending missionaries, to complete the work of spreading the gospel (Mat. 24:14).
Your experience in life, event he bad ones, are part of what makes us who we are individually. In the areas we need healing, God will bring it. In the areas we need forgivness He forgives us. Yu cannot change your past, but you can live in the moment. Our today will affect our future.
Lord Bless,
LT
TheNET Coordinator -
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Permalink Reply by RoyW on
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I think LT, David, Amanda (what a beautiful person) and all the rest should come to Kansas (the most beautiful place in the world) and start a church.
Joe and I are here waiting on you all.
Sorry, just caught up in the moment. I have been following this conversation and just wishing I could be more like LT.
The people on this site are wonderful children of God and are a blessing where ever they are. -
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Roy,
What a great idea, with one adjustment. How about everyone moving to Florida instead :-)
Thanks for the kind word, but may we all aspire to be more like Jesus, the author and perfector of our faith :-)
Lord BLess,
LT
TheNET Coordinator -
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Amanda,
It is easier said than done, but can be done. It is a process that becomes easier over time and requires prayer, focus and time. Strive toward it and watch God work.
Lord Bless,
LT
TheNET Coordinator -
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Permalink Reply by ScribeD on
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LT! I really like the way you put that brother!
"God has given man liberties, which we often call freewill. These liberties fit within God's plan. He knew the end before the beginning of time was initiated. He knows the outcome and all is unfolding according to the design from the beginning. "
I may adopt this phrasing from you. Because in my opinion, when we look at these things, people often get caught on the poles, without noticing the curve of the earth. Typically the Calvinists will call me an Arminian and the Arminians will call me a Calvinist.
I think that God's word is so much clearer than that. It seems to me that God has said that there are two virtues that trump all others: Faith (in God) and Grace (by the power of God). It seems to me that when we truly apply faith in God, by the Grace of God, He grants us favor. That favor from God will overcome our doubt, it will overcome our desire for sin. -
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Scribe,
Amen to what you said here "I think that God's word is so much clearer than that. It seems to me that God has said that there are two virtues that trump all others: Faith (in God) and Grace (by the power of God). It seems to me that when we truly apply faith in God, by the Grace of God, He grants us favor. That favor from God will overcome our doubt, it will overcome our desire for sin.
I know where you are coming from. I have had the same experience regarding "Calvinists will call me an Arminian and the Arminians will call me a Calvinist." :-)
Feel free to use the satement, brother :-)
Lord Bless,
LT
TheNET Coordinator -
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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on
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Amanda -
Matthew 6:34 (New International Version)
34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.
All you have is today and today is the day the Lord has made, so use the image of God in you and change the morning by trading your sorrows for the Lord's gladness. Today is what you make of it for the most.
Even monsters need God sis, matter of fact monsters really need God.
Love to you. -
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Amanda,
Several things come to mind regarding your question.
1) God requires us to forgive them. The forgiveness starts with you forgiving them before Father God. This forgiveness begins before anyone ever asks for fogiveness. Jesus on the cross forgave those who had crucified Him. He did not give them salvation, but released them from their debt to Him in this action. You are called to forgive them before God and then if the day comes that they come to ask you for forgiveness it is an easy thing to extend, because it has already been dealt with and laid at the foot of the cross. Many question the instruction of Jesus to the discsiples when He told them if they forgive anyone they will be forgiven. IMO this has nothing to do with salvation, but the sins one commits against them personally. We have the ability in God's system to release people of their debt against us. Again, this does not extend salvation, but forgives them of the personal debt to us.
2) One of the primary purposes and benefits of forgiving others is that we are released from the prison that is associated with the offense against us. When we take it to God and forgive them we are the one being released from the great prison associated with the issue.
3) Forgiving others frees us. It removes the stone that weighs us down and opens the door for all that God has intended for us.
4) Part of it has to do with attitude. We must choose to release the other person. I chose a long time ago to not allow anyone who has ever hurt me or will hurt me in the future to keep me in the prison of unforgiveness. Jesus gave us the key and the key is forgiving others. Too many today cannot forgive because they still desire retribution. One must give it over to God in order to be free.
I will restate, the inability or unwillingness to forgive hurts us more than anyone else because of the anxiety and torment that a person experiences as they remain in the prison of unforgiveness, a prison in which the keys have been handed to the believer to enable them to escape that prison. The key of forgiveness.
This is a basic view of what I understand the Scriptures to teach on the subject. I am sure questions will arise from it and that is good.
Lord Bless,
LT
TheNET Coordinator -
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As you know Sis Amanda no one here is out to hurt another, so if something comes off as offensive do know that is no one’s intentions to offend.
>>Why hasn’t God fixed this yet?
God is waiting on you sis. He has already told you through the word and through His servants what you must do. You have known what He requires of you and your flesh doesn’t like it. All of those who had to forgive someone who deserves pain and not forgiveness can relate. You also know that what He is requesting is impossible to do without Him. With Him all things are possible. :) You have eternal life sis, God has fixed it already. He saved you and you have a huge worldwide family. No mind can conceive what God has in stored for us. God has already fixed it, He is your treasure.
>>Why is everyone assuming what this is about?
Beloved no one has assumed what your situation is about; your family in Christ is simply giving you their own experiences to equip you to be able to do this in God's timing. Unfortunately the most common abuse for woman to overcome and forgive the abuser is sexual abuse, generally from a family member. Your family is simply sharing their experience to love you and help you hopefully find something in what they are sharing with you that you can apply to your own situation.
Sis we love you. We do and no one here desires to bring you condemnation. So my following comment is not made with that intend. I know that expressing your feelings about this situation should help a bit and as we said before this should be done in God's timing. Have you sought counseling about this sis?
>>Why do I have to do it?
Out of the list of reasons you can be given none should matter more than the fact that that is what God is telling you to do. You are having the struggle you are having with this because God wants you to settle this in your life. He is not going to leave you or forsake you if you don't, but it will keep you from enjoying the abundant life.
>>But how does that happen?
Check out the Psalms, you will find many examples there on how forgiving others happens in a one on one with our Lord. Sis tell God exactly how you feel, He already knows, but unburden your heart with Him. -
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Permalink Reply by Carla on
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Amanda,
This is an enormous topic which would require far more than a quick response here. I believe that many people would benefit on a separate discussion to address what you are asking.
Why is there evil in the world? Why doesn't God step in and do something about it? Where did evil come from anyway?
These are great questions which we should ask and wrestle with.
Would you want to start a whole new forum? What do you think?
Let me assure you that you are not to thank God for all the evil things that take place....rather, Thank God that He is with you in the midst of them.
Blessings, Carla -
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Family,
It is extremely beneficial for our own person and for all those that God will bring in to our life, for us to edify that we have answers for the hope we proclaim, our faith. I read a few comments on this discussion stating that this topic has been debated from the beginning of the church time and it will continue on until He comes for the church and that is true. But that does not mean we don't discuss it. This is what we have been called to do by God, to KNOW HIM. It's a blessing that we can have great discussions. I personally think God designed the word in such a way so we can have such discussions and through them learn to love and respect each other. No other topic gets people more hurt, angry etc.. than the topic of personal beliefs. Yet it should not be so. We should learn to lovingly discuss all things pertaining to God and Godliness. We should welcome doctrinal correction. We should love it. Only the truth will set us FREE. I love it when I have to adjust a certain view i have held for one that fits better with the whole of scripture.
What matters is that the topic is settled in your life. That is what matters. Both cannot be right- Period. We both can be wrong, but we both can't be right on this one and all other doctirnes found in the bible. Yes the Teacher of teachers, the Holy Spirit will lead us to all truth, but the Holy Spirit abides in us. So is no surprise that He uses us to impart truth to our family.
The bible doesn't teach that you can lose your salvation and at the same time that you can't. Only one is right and though the topic has been debated and discussed throughout church history that does not mean we don't discuss it. It actually means the opposite; it means it’s our turn hahaha
Is this an irreconcilable topic? Far from it. Does it take some diligent study, yeah? There are only a few, actually I can’t think of one topic that is irreconcilable, ok I thought of one haha but they are extremely rare. God gave us the word so we can know Him, know His will and so we can know who we are in Him. Is meant to be understood. I have been on both sides of the fence of this one and of many other topics. This one is a secondary issue which should never cause us to divide, but for our personal FREEDOM IN CHRIST, this one is extremely important. As everyone knows I firmly believe in the security of the believer and in a life in holiness. God keeps HIs children.
Enjoy the discussions family. Learn to laugh through them. I be sitting here cracking up at myself and some stuff I read and never, EVER in a mocking way or with malice, but more like a kid in a candy store.
Blessings to you all. -
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