All About GOD - Growing Relationships with Jesus and Others
Is Obedience to God necessary for salvation?
I like to read all the replies here, they are very insightful and thoughtful.
The reason for this question, is that I've read more than one reply that states that there is nothing left for us to do regarding salvation. Is this biblical?
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Amanda on
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Roy,
God wants us to succeed. God helps those whom He is saving in every way to understand, see, hear, grow. God gives us personal gifts and where we are weak, God shows His strength. God isn't passive with us but is very active in our lives, sustaining, helping, delivering, and so much more, but the sad part is that sometimes we get into the place where we can't feel or receive God's love even though it is there.
Psalm 18:28-32
English Standard Version (ESV)
28 For it is you who light my lamp;
the Lord my God lightens my darkness.
29 For by you I can run against a troop,
and by my God I can leap over a wall.
30 This God—his way is perfect;[a]
the word of the Lord proves true;
he is a shield for all those who take refuge in him.
31 For who is God, but the Lord?
And who is a rock, except our God?—
32 the God who equipped me with strength
and made my way blameless.
Janie,
God wants you. God values you. God thinks you are worth giving His only begotten Son. Say yes to God. Embrace God. Don't draw back any longer. God is reaching for your hand. Put your hand in His hand and trust Him to lead you the rest of the way through your life, good times and bad times. God wants to give you some comfort, some love, some assurance. God is right beside you, waiting for you to take His hand.
Roy,
It's in Exodus 33, too -- I listened to it today, ESV.
In verse 14, And he said, “My presence will go with you, and I will give you rest." -
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Permalink Reply by RoyW on
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Amanda,
Again with the works. We still do see things just a little differently. How do you define success? Am I to accomplish something to be successful? What if I never overcome some of my sin? Is my life a failure? What is the least amount of fruit one can have in order to be saved? Is there a certain amount one must achieve? What determines is I am successful?
God has worked through me in my life. This evening we all pulled out the yearbooks of our school in years gone by. I saw pictures of hundred and hundreds of kids that were affected for the Kingdom of God. Does that make me successful? My sons are now pastors of a very large church. Does that make me successful? My daughter is dean of a very large Christian school. All our children are faithfully serving God. Am I successful? I have never cheated on my wife. Does that make me a success?
The answer I have is "no." I am a child of God. However, I have failed over and over and over again but God managed to use me anyway. Who gets the credit for the success? Do I take that credit? God forbid such a thing. Sometimes God uses people in spite of their horrible natures. Do you consider King David a success? How many times did he fail? Was he a success? If he were an American, we would probably execute him for his failures. We would never allow him to pastor our church. Why, then, do we consider David such a great success? It is because of God's grace working through him. It is all God's grace. It is none of us. It is not us; it is He. He is my success. He is my victory. He is my everything. I tell Janie to get her eyes off of herself and turn around and there you are talking about us being a success. For a moment, there, you got your eyes right back onto yourself and depression will follow. You must fight every attempt to compromise the Gospel. It is all of Christ. I know so many do not see this. Those that resort back to the works of the Law are those that are like dogs that return to their vomit.
Phil 3:7-11
7 But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. 8 Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; 10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, 11 if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead. NKJV
Paul does go ahead and talk of pressing on but not in anyway to count himself as a success. He would never take credit to himself for any of the great things he did. Paul was pressing on simply because he wanted to know Christ more and more and more. He was way beyond needing to succeed. He knew he was already successful in Christ. To us, he may not seem perfect. However, to God, he was absolutely perfect. He was complete in Christ. We are as well.
I may not see you as perfect but I absolutely guarantee to you that your Father sees you as perfect. He can no longer see your flaws. They are removed. They are gone. You are complete. You are a success. You will never ever be anymore acceptable to God than you are right at this moment.
Let us suppose for a moment that you do overcome all your sinful ways. Does that make you a better person? Will that make God love you more? I can tell you that even if you overcame every one of your sins you would never speak of that to anyone. You would not even think of that. It would be as that wasn't real. Why? You would be lost in Him. No one will ever know if someone did overcome all their sin as that person would never speak of that. But, would that person be better than you or I? Of course not. Why? Because we are not able to achieve one ounce of righteousness by anything we do.
You spoke of rest and yet immediately begin to work. Rest! rest, rest. You will never, ever be one ounce better than you are right this moment. You will never be more successful than you are right this moment. You will never be more loved than you are right now.
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Roy,
You are a very kind gentleman and your life is filled with the good works that you were created by God to do and those works show genuine belief in God - the Father, the Son, and Holy Spirit.
You said:
"Again with the works. We still do see things just a little differently. How do you define success? Am I to accomplish something to be successful? What if I never overcome some of my sin? Is my life a failure? What is the least amount of fruit one can have in order to be saved? Is there a certain amount one must achieve? What determines if I am successful?"
His righteous and holiness being lived out in and through you -- you are a wonderful and ongoing testimony of this!
You said:
"God has worked through me in my life. This evening we all pulled out the yearbooks of our school in years gone by. I saw pictures of hundred and hundreds of kids that were affected for the Kingdom of God. Does that make me successful? My sons are now pastors of a very large church. Does that make me successful? My daughter is dean of a very large Christian school. All our children are faithfully serving God. Am I successful? I have never cheated on my wife. Does that make me a success? The answer I have is "no."
The answer is YES! You have been blessed and this is the fruit you are bearing. You have lived your life before God being open to what He has next for you (such as being where you are now and working full time now after the last part of the journey of your story with God closed) and it is in our weakness that He shows Himself strong. We cannot do it! He has to do it through us for us to succeed.
You said:
"I tell Janie to get her eyes off of herself and turn around and there you are talking about us being a success. For a moment, there, you got your eyes right back onto yourself and depression will follow."
Yes, I'm struggling to overcome being religious and I'm learning about the rest in Christ. Depression for me is physical as well as psychological and there is a spiritual element there as well. I need freedom.
You said:
"Rest! rest, rest. You will never, ever be one ounce better than you are right this moment. You will never be more successful than you are right this moment."
Romans 10:16-17
New King James Version (NKJV)
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?”[a] 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
In context, the word obeyed here appears to mean something like welcomed or accepted and received. But I could be mistaken.
Hebrews 4 is about Christ being our Sabbath rest. But it also talks about disobedience.
Here's the irony, Roy.
There it looks like the disobedience involves a failure to rest. God rested the seventh day and gave that commandment to rest. It sounds ironic that a command is to not work instead of work and everyone looks at obedience as works. So, my understanding is that rest is a work that can be disobeyed. Lol
Be obedient and stop working to be saved or stay saved!
Jesus is our rest. (I think it's reverse psychology, LOL). Love you, brother. Very much.
Hebrews 4
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
The Believer’s Rest
4 Therefore, let us fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word [a]they heard did not profit them, because [b]it was not united by faith in those who heard. 3 For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said,
“As I swore in My wrath,
They shall not enter My rest,”
although His works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For He has said somewhere concerning the seventh day: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”; 5 and again in this passage, “They shall not enter My rest.” 6 Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience, 7 He again fixes a certain day, “Today,” saying [c]through David after so long a time just as has been said before,
“Today if you hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts.” -
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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on
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Janie,
As always, great questions.
>>I am curious too as to why Jesus says to GO and sin NO MORE if it were impossible to do.
Jesus/God cannot ask us for anything less. Imagine Jesus saying, go sin just a little haha He is Holy and He enables us to live lives free of sin. We don't know of any man that has walked in perfection, but in reality it is possible. Paul wrote that his conscious was clear before man and God and that beloved is walking in perfection or very close to it. We (Me) are such strangers to such maturity that walking in such holiness seems unattainable, but we can attain in Christ and through him beautiful freedoms to walk in love. I am not saying that I have attained it, but like Paul and many others in this site I push forward towards the calling of my Lord. We can walk in tremendous freedom in Christ.
1 John 1:8
7but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one nother, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.…
Blessings Janie.
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Permalink Reply by ribbon on
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Thank you David and Amanda....... I appreciate you answering my question and both of your caring .
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About not taking credit because of your kids growing up to be decent. I know people who were drunks and druggies who were horrible parents whos kids grew up to be very decent. I have know parents who never did drugs neither did they drink but their kids ended up being just the opposite. So I understand what you are saying ... I think . :/
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I believe she chose to leave AAG, Seek. I was hoping she'd stay. She is very gifted and loves God's Word. I sensed that she was afraid of being misled but I could be wrong, except it's similar to the way I felt when I first joined and began to learn about eternal security and assurance of salvation. I was afraid of being duped and throught it was too good to be true. I was afraid of anything that could be so easily obtained, without strings attached. A free gift without me being indebted for receiving it? No way!
I also sensed that, just as I, she has a lack of assurance about who she is in Christ and is very sensitive and easily hurt.
If I discerned wrong, I hope she'll return and show me. I really do care about her. Sometimes people are hurting but are afraid to admit they are hurting because they think it means they will be showing lack of faith or something.
Our love for each other can remain secure even though we may disagree on many doctrines. We can stick to our own convictions and be willing to discuss those convictions with each other but then respect each other's view points while giving reasons that stop us from accepting the other's POV, yet knowing that godly love is most important.
Rejecting someone's beliefs or ideas (especially regarding secondary issues) doesn't mean you have to reject the person. You may not approve of their beliefs but love covers a multitude of sins (or shortcomings and weaknesses). I am still learning how to be more loving and to speak the truth in love. I hope she will forgive me for any hurt I've caused her and I hope she returns to us.
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Its all good Roy. I have always been able to handle most bullys. I don't see your comment to me as being a bully though. But anytime you feel froggy ... jump man jump ... Im ready.
You are right I do and have put myself before God. I have always admitted that that is my problem. But just because I am confused about Jesus saying to go and sin no more doesn't mean I am a saved by works believer. I am a believer if you stink like the world then you are of the world. I wont denie that either. I am not understanding as to what you mean by getting my mind off of others. The only thing I can figure out as to why you are saying that is by what I said about when those people started judging me when I backslid..... so yes I judged them back. You may not realize but its mostly Christian folks who judge the lost harder than the lost judging the Christians. When I was walking with Jesus so to speak.... I didn't judge anybody... I was a hard praying woman.... and I loved people even though I didn't tell them that. Im stopping right here and Im going to have to reread your comment... ive forgot already. Im sorry for the forgetfulness.
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RoyW,
Also when I mentioned the "others" It is because they judged me first... I was backslidden I didn't care a flip what they thought but it was opportunity for me to point at their flaws too. The way things are taught now by some Christians I wonder just how many people are going to be told by God to depart He doesn't know them. I remember long ago I was desiring to sin..... for an split instant it came to my mind that I might as well go for it because I would still be saved. This is how others see some of the born agains.......this is reasons they choose not to have anything to do with God. But then again others think hey hey I can stay enjoying the sinful life and be saved. To me that is wrong. To me the bible talks about there will be know slanderers no fornicaters no murderers ect...... but people who do these things are thinking well the fornicating lieing Christians are. LOL I have no idea why I am mention this... I am just am I guess. I am going t reread all of the discussion to see why. I loose focus easy.
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that would have to be too much reading. I think I brought it up because of sometimes people think that to Obey God is "works" I don't see obeying God as works I see it as obeying.. To me works is doing things at church.... things like that. I guess...
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Yet, when you speak of yourself and others, you speak so much of what they do. You do not speak of who they are. Most of your position is based upon how well you are doing at the time. Your very mention of being backslidden was based on your works. I'm not sure but I am guessing that you considered yourself lost at the time. You keep talking about what others think and what others do. You say you have no idea why you speak of these things. I think the Lord wants you to see that you do indeed have your eyes on others rather than on Him. What others do and think is not important in your relationship with Christ. You must find yourself in Him and in Him alone. God does call us to obedience but we will not be judged by how well we do with that. If God saves someone that does not merit our admiration or attain to our expectations, that is completely His business. Do you approve of the actions of King David? Are you better than he? Have you murdered someone? Yet, God loved him desperately and always loved him. David's salvation was not based on his ability to not sin. David was God's son and you had better be careful if you want to criticize this child of God. Solomon had 1,000 women and worshiped false gods. Does God have the right to save Solomon? I guarantee that none of these people you speak of did things even close to comparable to these guys. They may be children of the most high God. I would encourage you to not make fun or speak evil of them. It may be that they really don't know God but you and I do not have the right to determine that. I guess we speak of the failures of others to help ourselves feel just a little better about ourselves.
Okay, I have said enough. I don't get on these forums too often and I am sure all are the better for it. Our salvation is in Christ and in Him alone. It has nothing to do with how much we have accomplished in our walk with Him. God will take care of all of us but even then, we must give Him the credit. If He disciplines me and I respond positively to that, it is still Christ.
Blessings.
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Roy,
I do not keep on speaking evil of the people I mentioned/I mentioned them in this forum. Those people who first judged me. I never thought one way or the other about them before that. Are you not judging me? I do notice that you mostly stay away from these forums ... that is until you jump in and defend sin. No one here that I see is saying they are better ..... but to make people think that they shouldn't think that they should be obedient is beyond my understanding. Those people I mentioned told me I was going to hell for dissing God like I did. You can bet your teaching backside that I told them what I thought. And me judging or not Roy, there is millions of people whom think they are heaven bound simply because they said ONE prayer... simply because they are being taught that our ugly sin is works. Sin is sin......and people living and continuing in sin in my opinion are hell bound. That's including me.... And for your information when I was going to church I was always on my face crying to God to change me to help me love all people. I didn't stand around thinking I was better or sinless. But like I said when I backslid.... and those nasty filthy mouthed jerks told me I was going to hell .... I told them what I thought. I am glad you come to the forums sometimes... even though I think you aren't understanding what I try to say.
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