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Is Obedience to God necessary for salvation?
I like to read all the replies here, they are very insightful and thoughtful.
The reason for this question, is that I've read more than one reply that states that there is nothing left for us to do regarding salvation. Is this biblical?
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Jon Houser on
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You are correct, but many of those unsaved believe that are saved because they have "asked Jesus into their hearts". On that day He will say to them, "I never knew you.", and they will be cast into the lake of fire where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
But only they who do the will of the Father, will be saved.
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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on
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And the Word also states:
1Jn_3:9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.
A true child of God cannot continue to live in sin, not because He is afraid of losing his/her salvation, but because he/she has been transformed, born again, is a new creation, God lives in us. The motivation to live a sinless life is not out of fear of loss, but because we love Him and want to please our heavenly Father. Just because one believes eternal security is written in God's Word does not mean we believe one can live any way they want. That is a common mischaracterization of what most who believe in eternal security actually believe and teach ... especially here on this site.
You are new here and you obviously have a lot of zeal. Let me make a couple observations and give you a simple warning. Most people believe they are reading God's Word correctly and everyone who disagrees with their view must be in error. Many simply point out to people they know nothing about and tell them to read the WHOLE WORD, etc ... You think your right ... awesome, means you have conviction, but you need to learn how to engage in discussion and show respect to those who disagree with you or you will not be on this site very long.
An example ... I have read the whole Word of God many times, have taught as a pastor for over 20 years and have overseen this site for over 8 years as well. I believe in eternal security ... clearly see it written in God's Word and have discussed it here numerous times with people just like you who do not believe in eternal security, and some just like you that try to come and over talk or force your view as the right one and believing that all others must be wrong ... Thus, make your points and show respect or you will be gone.
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Permalink Reply by Seek on
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What is Gods will?
1 Peter 2:15 For it is God’s will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish people.
1 Thessalonians 4:3 It is God’s will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality;
1 Thessalonians 5:18 give thanks in all circumstances; for this is God’s will for you in Christ Jesus.
Ephesians 5:17-20
17 Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord’s will is. 18 Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit, 19 speaking to one another with psalms, hymns, and songs from the Spirit. Sing and make music from your heart to the Lord, 20 always giving thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Timothy 2:4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
Micah 6:8 He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
God wants everyone to repent. Therefore His will is for us to talk with others about the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and do good, and to silence those who are foolish, using Scripture to refute them. To avoid drunkenness, sexual immorality and the like. To always be thankful.
He sanctifies us through trials to mold us more and more to act in such a manner and become more and more like Him...to humble us.
Paul also said if we "do sin" we have an advocate...the sacrificial Lamb who cleanses us of all sin.
BC, God required regular blood sacrifices to cover sins. AC, Christ now covers our sins permanently.
So we may occasionally sin, while trying to avoid doing so, and we have the blood sacrifice that covers it.
One who is truly repentant will try to live in this manner, though they may occasionally fail. -
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I agree with you Roy. As I just posted above, I'm still in my Revelation study. And I have a theory is believe I can back through Scripture comparisons that may shed some light on that. Hopefully I'll finish before 2017. LOL its gonna be very lengthy but very informative.
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Permalink Reply by Richard L. Broch, Sr. on
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Hi Grace (is that your first name, also?),
If I am interpreting your discussion question correctly, it is referring to what a new Christian does after receiving Christ as his or her Lord and Savior.............
I've also read and heard of belief in some churches, that after the initial act of receiving Jesus into one's heart, that person was "good to go", as they had done all that was necessary to be saved.
The Bible does have more to say about this..............
We find the simple, complete outline in I Corinthians 1:30 (NASB), " But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,"
Compare Proverbs 9:10,"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding."
As a new Christian, one should have a deep reverence of God, and start thinking with His wisdom in daily life.....and dig into the Bible to gain knowledge about Him.
Romans 12:1-2 call for dedicated service from a new (and old) Christian - "I urge you therefore brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect." Sounds like some action going on to me...................
And then we should be going through sanctification (setting apart from the world, crucifying all our old garbage of life that we still have from the world). This will probably take the rest of our lives. Jesus says it best in Luke 9:23, "........If anyone wishes to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross DAILY, and follow Me." (caps added).
Another excellent account of sanctification is found in Galatians 5: 13- 26.
Then the final part of this simple outline - "redemption", is found in Revelation 20:15, "And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."
Grace and Peace.
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Yes it is Biblical. People get stuck on the O.T. in God's wrath, judgement, obedience, etc. and overlook the N.T. which was the new covenant which it is by GRACE we are SAVED and NOT by works (obedience) lest any man should boast. It is the GIFT of Christ. All the N.T. scripture points to believing and receiving and GOD will work on us to mold us to obedience. Certainly He does want us obedient, and if we accept Him, we're going to want to be obedient. But flesh often interrupts that. And that doesn't mean we beat ourselves up when we fail, but that we try again and pray, and we get into the word on that subject and learn from those failures. But we CANNOT be obedient in and of ourselves. Even the Bible speaks of the law which was given to SHOW us how we are sinners so that we would come to repentance. The law kills, Christ gives life.
So we don't do anything for "salvation" except come to a repentance, and thereafter, God works on us and through us to mold us more into the image of Christ. That doesn't mean we just say, ok I'm saved, I don't have to even try or do anything. Sure we do. We pray, we get into the Word so our mind can be renewed and transformed. We pray that God will change us in areas we feel we need more help in. Because now the law is written on our hearts. We WANT to obey, we WANT to do everything God would have us do, but being we're imperfect humans, God knew beforehand we would not be able to obey the letter of the law and planned from the beginning for Christ.
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Permalink Reply by Amanda on
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Amen, Seek.
The works, in my understanding, will be the evidence after becoming born again. God certainly has created us to do good works and those works have been prepared in advance for us to do.
Ephesians 2:10
New International Version (NIV)
10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Love for God and for others propels us to do good works and when we love God and love others, we find that obedience isn't the definition of love but just the opposite because one can obey someone without loving them at all. However, one can love and discover that in showing and giving that love they are being obedient to God, too, but the obedience isn't the goal and isn't what is initiating the love but vice versa.
I hope that makes sense.
I want to love God and love others.
Hebrews 4:9-10
English Standard Version (ESV)
9 So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, 10 for whoever has entered God's rest has also rested from his works as God did from his.
In my studying of Hebrews 4 and Matthew 11:28-29, I've learned that the word rest is the same word with the same meaning.
Jesus did all the work to save us. Our works of obedience to Him aren't what will keep us saved but will be evidence that we are children of God and are walking in the light.
Matthew 11:28-29
English Standard Version (ESV)
28 Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
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It seems you believe that there is no wrath, judgment, obedience, etc. in the New Testament?
No. There is judgment for what we do or don't do. But not eternal damnation. And of ourselves, we can do nothing. Which is why we believe and are saved. That's it. Once saved, God will convict us and work with us, but we're saved. We have a choice then to do our best with Him, and He'll be convicting us all along on issues. His judgment will be as to the rewards we receive (or not) for what we did in His name. I take that from the context of the full N.T., where it speaks of the rewards and His judgment.
It seemed almost as if the old mean God of the Old Testament had been transformed into a nicer, more caring God in the New Testament?
Old mean God? He never was an old mean God, old or new. He had us in mind from the beginning of creation and had planned the messiah from the beginning. He created us to love us. Having judgment against sin doesn't make Him mean. But He knew from the beginning that man would fall and that we had no way of keeping all the commandments or being righteous in and of ourselves, which is why He planned for Christ from the beginning...so we could be MADE righteous, not through what we do. Which leads into the next question...
My question to you is was there no grace in the Old Testament? Because I believe everyone is saved by grace through faith...in the Old Testament and in the New. Do you believe that there will be one soul in heaven that wasn't saved by grace thru faith?
Abraham's faith in God was accounted as righteousness even before Christ, as well as others in the O.T. who will be in heaven even without Christ. But it is God who changes the hearts of men and God who accounts or provides the grace for us to be righteous in His eyes. We have to answer that call on our heart and turn to Him and expect Him to change us and work with His promptings. But we won't be saved just by doing good works...the Bible is clear on that. We will be rewarded (or not) in the judgement for the works we do ONCE accepting Christ and being saved. And then the judgement for the sinners who never accepted Christ is eternal damnation.
I guess the point I'm trying to get at, is obedience necessary for salvation and if it's not, where in the Bible does it disclose that it's not?
To easily sum this up:
Luke 10:26 “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?” 27 He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”
That's the law. That's what we do to be obedient. Does that come easily? No.
Romans 7:15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. 21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
Paul says it right there....WE cannot keep from sinning or obey the full law. The ONLY way we can is by Jesus Christ delivering us from sin. The Bible is clear that obedience is NOT the way to salvation, or necessary for it. Salvation is ONLY by believing in and accepting Christ...repentance. After that, the Holy Spirit works in us to bring us to obedience and we either work with the Spirit or not, bringing judgment and rewards, or not.
I know I want to hear "Well done thy good and faithful servant", but I also know that I spent 45 years in the world and that doesn't break off overnight. God has been delivering me from those bondages little by little. I can sit in guilt and condemnation when I mess up (sin) or realize that God is working on my obedience and preparing me for greater things and not be mired down by the guilt and worry over what I do wrong, which steals away peace and joy and is of the devil. God convicts. Satan condemns. By being condemned by things we do that we don't want to do, satan keeps us mired in that, keeps us from having peace and joy. And giving it over to God to work in us, keeping our peace and joy, is what enables us to act more like Christ day by day.
Also, this may be something I'm not understanding correctly in the Bible, but in Revelation 20 it implies that we will be judged by our "works."
Hebrews 10:26 For if we go on sinning deliberately (that's a point people often miss...we sin, Paul says we will - but "deliberately"...do we WANT to sin?) after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.
ALL have sinned and fell short of the glory of God. You ever get angry? You ever say something you wish you could take back in a moment of hurt or fear? You EVER worry? Then you've sinned. You're being disobedient to God who says "fear not", "do not worry", "do not sin in your anger", etc. If obedience is what is required to keep us from hell, ALL of us will be in hell. Obedience IS what God wants, but what God also knows that of ourselves we CANNOT do, and because we still live in a fleshly body, we'll NEVER be completely free from sin. But our hearts no longer desire sinning. We are MADE righteous through faith in Christ Jesus.
I believe, just by the birth pangs, that this world is swiftly coming to an end. Not trying to put a time or date, just telling you, that Jesus is coming back and He's not coming back to save the world, He's coming back to judge. Trim your wick and fill your oil.
That too is what the people of Ninevah thought, and yet they repented and turned away from evil and God didn't destroy them. I would rather pray God turn our country (world) around, to put God fearing leaders back in place, and bring people to repentance, than to stand around expecting His coming and operating out of fear that the world is going to end. It hasn't ended. Therefore, God still has things for His people to do. We still need to be spreading the gospel so others can turn to Him.
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Very good, Seek.
A believer isn’t made righteous by his/her works but the works prove saving faith. Good works show genuine belief in God.
Titus 2:11-14
English Standard Version (ESV)
11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, 12 training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, 13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.
In the OT everyone who was saved was saved by grace through faith. There are several accounts of this truth in the OT and Abraham is one as it mentions in Romans 4:1-11 but also we read this from David, and it looks like God forgives and doesn't hold sins against us and saves us based on confession and repentance because we believe in God and in His promises, not based on our works.
Psalm 32:1-7
English Standard Version (ESV)
Blessed Are the Forgiven
A Maskil[a] of David.
32 Blessed is the one whose transgression is forgiven,
whose sin is covered.
2 Blessed is the man against whom the Lord counts no iniquity,
and in whose spirit there is no deceit.
3 For when I kept silent, my bones wasted away
through my groaning all day long.
4 For day and night your hand was heavy upon me;
my strength was dried up[b] as by the heat of summer. Selah
5 I acknowledged my sin to you,
and I did not cover my iniquity;
I said, “I will confess my transgressions to the Lord,”
and you forgave the iniquity of my sin. Selah
6 Therefore let everyone who is godly
offer prayer to you at a time when you may be found;
surely in the rush of great waters,
they shall not reach him.
7 You are a hiding place for me;
you preserve me from trouble;
you surround me with shouts of deliverance. Selah
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Permalink Reply by RoyW on
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Grace to you,
Could you please print out a list of do's and don'ts for us to make sure we get everything just right? Is it okay if we drink a little wine now and then. What if I drink too much and get a little tipsy. Is that okay? If not, what state does that put me in? Have I lost my salvation or do I just need to ask forgiveness for what I have just done?
Am I allowed to watch television? When I turn on the news and see the commercials which reveal way too much, have I sinned by seeing them? What happens if I see my neighbor's wife and have lust in my heart? What happens if I get in a hurry and exceed the speed limit? What happens if I fail to report every cent on my income tax report? Am I allowed to smoke a pipe for pleasure in the evening or is that out? Please, can you give the rules by which we are to live?
Never mind. Actually, I have already overcome all sin. No, I am not saying that I am perfect but I am saying that He is and He did it all for me. What I cannot do, He has me covered. Where I fail, I am complete in Him. You are way off in your thinking. You think these verses are calling you to perfection. You cannot and will not ever reach that in your life. You will fail over and over again. You obey God when you believe in Christ. This is His call - you must be born again. Can you do that? Can you be born again? How do you do that? Do you achieve certain things in your life to bring that about?
Jesus commanded us to be perfect even as our Father in heaven is perfect. Have you yet achieved that? How do I achieve that? May I introduce you to the Savior Who will do that for you? Would you receive His free gift of righteousness? Would you receive His gift of perfection? Would you receive His perfect obedience? If so, you are in. If not, you have not yet been born again. If you are striving for things to be good enough to be part of His Kingdom, you have not yet come into grace. You may be searching and you may be close, but you are not there.
Everything you are demanding, Jesus has already done. The work is finished. He gives salvation freely to all who will receive. Once having received His grace, do we go back to the old way of doing and receiving? NO! We receive freely for doing nothing. Trust me. If Paul could not do it, neither can you. You cannot do all that you are demanding. You will never do all that you are demanding. You will remain in your sins until you receive freely His gift of salvation. Once saved, ALL your sins are forgiven you. You are no longer under condemnation. You no longer will be damned for your sins. You have been righteous by His grace.
You weary me with all your talk with the things I must do. I do try but I do not live a life of worry, fear or dread when I fail. I fail all the time. However, Jesus came to save me from my failures and I am praising Him daily.
Does God take sin seriously? You bet. Can you imagine the beating Jesus took for us? He took all my punishment. There is none left to be dished out to me.
Blessed is the man to whom all charges against him have been removed.
Blessed is the man to whose sin the Lord will never take into account.
Blessings!
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Grace, I do not know why you deleted everything. But I would like to pose something without you getting upset over it...
By deleting and getting upset with the responses, that in itself is sinning...anger and letting emotions get the better of us. I only state this because that is what I mean by we ALL sin. Little sins, big sins...it's all sin. We CANNOT be perfect following the letter of the law but we are MADE perfect through Jesus Christ.
But you asked (cause I read it from my phone this morning then got to a computer and found you deleted everything) where the Bible says we cannot be completely free from sin.
1 John 3:2-3 (KJV)
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.The Bible tells us over and over to be like Christ, but it also says we don't know Christ completely but when He appears we shall see Him fully and be like Him. The Bible also says repeatedly to obey God's commands, but it lets us also know that of ourselves we cannot, and that we're being changed inwardly from glory to glory and maturing in our faith. That means we ALL sin. When we get angry, hold a grudge even for a second, etc., the Bible says do not fear, do not worry...yet we ALL do these things at times. Does that mean we're to be burdened down by them? No...for His yoke is easy and His burden is LIGHT. Making it heavy on people, telling them you have to obey every command in the Bible or else, makes it harder on them. Then when they do mess up and get angry or even worse, they feel condemned over it because they haven't yet realized that GOD is the one who will change them from the inside. That's why we're told to cast our cares and not told to obsess on every little thing we do wrong. But we strive to do right and turn it over to God when we don't always measure up.
Aside from that, you and I do not have to believe exactly the same. Neither one of us know God completely and will not know Him completely until He calls us home. He is too great for any of us to completely know Him. We all have our own little pieces of Him, our glimpses of what He asks of us, or what He's working in us. Unity in the body requires we not squabble over those little differences but embrace our differences. You don't need to understand where I get my beliefs anymore than I need to understand yours. The only understanding we need to have is that we're both in relationship with Christ and letting Him work in us, the author and perfecter of our faith.
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Permalink Reply by ribbon on
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I was here reading the forum post last night. I read what Grace for you wrote to David. It was in response to him believing Calvinistic beliefs. I wish I had of copied it and the rest that she had written. I didn't see where she said she was without sin "no where" did I read that. I am curious too as to why Jesus says to GO and sin NO MORE if it were impossible to do. Isnt it possible for the born agains to stop doing what they know to be sin when Jesus' Holy Spirit is living in them? I don't understand why Jesus says to go and sin no more. Can someone who steals not stop stealing with the Christ in him? To me there is a difference between continued sinning and stumbling. Like if yo start lusting..... should a Christian continue? Continue because it is empossible for them to stop?
David, Seek and LT, I so like the way yall respond to members here who do not agree with all you say. The way yall approach the ones who don't agree comes across " to me anyway" as very loving , very caring. This is much better than the BULLY approach. Seek , apparently Grace for you left the site as she had said she was going to do. This must have automatically deleted everything she posted. I hate it too because I was learning so much from her here.
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