If you believe you can lose your salvation, please take time to illustrate how a person can lose their salvation by making it applicable to the believer today.

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on February 18, 2011 at 8:41am

David A.,

 

We can go back and forth on this, but it is one thing to know a principle and another for it to be applied The new covenant was not established until after Jesus death. The Book of Hebrews talks about this clearly. David has faith in God, but the blood of Christ is not applied to His life until after the blood of the new covnenat was shed. Abraham trusted that God could raise Isaac from the dead if he sacrificed him. These wonderful truths do not mean that they are at that time partakers of the new covenant. They trusted God.

 

Salvation is mentioned many times in the O.T. Do you believe it is referring to the salvation that we experience in the new covenant that brings new birth? Was David born-again at the time of him writting psalm 51?

 

Lord Bless,

LT

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Permalink Reply by David Abel on February 18, 2011 at 9:48am

Hi LT. I agree with you on some points and not on others. The night of the first Passover was an Old Testament introduction to the Blood of Jesus. The Blood of Jesus (or symbols/"shadows" thereof) is seen in many places in the Old Testament. So the Blood of Jesus is not entirely absent from the Old Testament, even if only in symbolic form. The blood (representing the Blood of Jesus) was applied with hyssop, and David applied this ceremonially and in reality in Psalm 51.

 

 ⁷Purify me with hyssop, and I shall be clean [ceremonially]; wash me, and I shall [in reality] be whiter than snow.

 

We disagree on certain things, but one thing for me is sure - the themes and principles of Psalm 51 apply equally to the believer now as it did to David then.

 

We remain in disagreement on this one.

 

God Bless,

David A.

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on February 18, 2011 at 11:33am

David A.,

The Book of Hebrews speaks to the difference between the representation and the real thing. We differ on the application of what is taking place in Psalm 51 and how it applied to David and what is now applied to us in the new covenant.

 

Lord Bless,

LT

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Permalink Reply by Rita Cullimore on February 18, 2011 at 4:33am

LT...

I like the demonstration of Jesus as the tea bag.

Allow me to continue using it...

The glass of tea represents a person wholly committed to Christ. For what ever reason, that person decides to do earthly things. Drink, cuss, drugs, adultery, hate etc. Every time a sin is committed, a little "Jesus" is poured out and "sin"(water) added. Regardless of how much "Jesus" is poured out and how much "sin" is added, there will remain a trace of "Jesus". As we confess, study, etc., we are renewed by the Holy Spirit. Fresh "Jesus" is added. The "sin" is not noticeable, because it is covered by fresh  "Jesus". 

 

Blessings,

Rita

If one empties the glass completely, that represents the passing of the person.

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on February 18, 2011 at 6:16am

Rita,

 

Excellent....

 

Lord Bless,

LT

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Permalink Reply by Carla on February 19, 2011 at 9:21pm

LB,

You said this:

 But it really says God set forth Jesus to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, and that's all.  Sins that are past! 

 

Where does it specify 'past sins' in scripture?

 

Blessings, Carla

 

 

 

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on February 20, 2011 at 4:39am

LB,

 

You are in error. The Bible points to us as being family all over the place. We call Him Father, Jesus brother, fellow believers brother and sisters, as well as being called the children of God.

 

Earthly families are a poor example or shadow of the heavenly family, but an example none-the-less. I disagree with you believing that a father or mother can disown their children. They can proclaim that they disown them, but that does not change the reality that they are still father and son or mother and daughter. You check their DNA and it proves that the lineage is still there. You are trying to prove that because fallen man can proclaim that he disowns his child that God will act the same. Does not work. At the fall man was changed from the pure image of God into a fallen creature that could now die. Sin became his master (in a sense). When a person is born again we are transformed and take on the very nature of Jesus spiritually, because it is the very nature of Jesus that we receive.

 

Lord Bless,

LT

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Permalink Reply by Rita Cullimore on February 20, 2011 at 6:37am

LB,

The unpardonable sin is not receiving the call and accepting Jesus. For that...there is no remedy. Because the call comes from Holy Spirit, and one doesn't respond, one blasphemes Him and His call. When one rejects the offer, they are in essence calling Holy Spirit a liar.

For the born again, regenerated Christian, there is no unpardonable sin.

Satan, in his attacks against us, might lead us to sin, but most Christians, realizing they error, repent immediately.

There are also sins we do that are performed because we aren't listening to our heart and we repent of those also.

I can't think of a Christian that actually tells Holy Spirit to "shut up" when He warns them of their error, or covers his/her ears that the message isn't received.

I don't think the Christians in here think their salvation is a "license to sin". I know I don't, and I'm no better than the newest member of Christ's "Family".

The intercession that Christ makes for us in heaven is His death and resurrection. It isn't an "if" situation. The intercession is made. He sits on the right hand of the Father, proving that it has been made. When Christ said from the cross, "it is finished", He didn't lie or err. He paid the price, that we might live for eternity (the persons who accept Him as Savior.)

The Bible is the "Will of God". We have the Old (Will) and we have the New (Will). We don't actually need further instruction in the Will of God. We already have it.

 

Blessings as you study God's Will for your life...

Rita

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Permalink Reply by Rita Cullimore on February 18, 2011 at 5:01am

^{10 r}According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a ^sfoundation, and ^tsomeone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it. ¹¹ For no one can lay a ^ufoundation other ^vthan that which is laid, ^wwhich is Jesus Christ. ¹² Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— ^{13 x}each one’s work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed ^yby fire, and ^zthe fire will test what sort of work each one has done. ¹⁴ If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, ^ahe will receive a reward. ¹⁵ If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, ^bbut only as through fire.

^r [2 Pet. 3:15]; See Rom. 12:3

^s ver. 11, 12; Rom. 15:20; [Rev. 21:14]

^t [ch. 4:15]

^u Isa. 28:16

^v [2 Cor. 11:4; Gal. 1:6, 7]

^w [Eph. 2:20]

^x ch. 4:5

^y ver. 15; 2 Thess. 1:8

^z 1 Pet. 1:7

^a See ver. 8

^b [Ps. 66:12; Isa. 43:2; Jude 23]

The Holy Bible : English Standard Version. Wheaton : Standard Bible Society, 2001, S. 1 Co 3:15

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on February 18, 2011 at 8:22am

Amanda,

 

LT, as you know, I have been taught my whole life that I can lose salvation and my present church teaches it also. I would like to ask further about Philippians 1:6, "Being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus." The argument goes that this doesn’t prove eternal security.
There is no qualifier added to this verse. Paul acknowledges that they are in partnership with the gospel, but that is not a qualifier. It is a recognition of who they are and what they are doing, yet their end is not dependant on them, but Him.

 

JUDE 1:24 To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy--

They tell me this promise is only true in the lives of those who meet the conditions stated elsewhere in Scripture such as in Matthew. 10:22, Romans 8:13, and Gal. 6:8.

Matthew 10:22: What a promise. Brothers I want you to know that as you go through these many difficult trials and persecution, as you endure them you will be saved. This is a proclamation of hope. How hard it must be to endure trials and tribulations if at every step you wonder if you are about to fall off the cliff. We can trust Him and take Him at His word that when we have gone through such horrible things God really is going to fulfill what He has promised to us. (Refer back to Php. 1:6 and Jude :24)

Romans 8:13: People will tire of hearing this, but put it into context. What do the next 3 verses say? What is the point of Romans 8. One verse does not make a doctrine, nor is a true doctrine built on a few snatched out verses.

Galatians 6:8: Paul says the following in Romans 8:9 “You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.” What does that say? If a person lives according to the sinful nature they do not have the Spirit of Christ. If they do not have the Spirit of Christ they do not have Christ. Those who “sow” to please the sinful nature are not God’s children.

Also, in context of the book. Phil. 2:12 says this church group "always obeyed" in Paul's presence. Though not perfect, they were not lukewarm or worldly or in rebellion. They not only did "always obey," they were enduring the same types of struggles that Paul had endured (1:29, 30), and they were supporting Paul (4:14-16), so he could confidently say this about them but not mean it for everyone.
^{PHP 2:12}Therefore, my dear ones, as you have always obeyed [my suggestions], so now, not only [with the enthusiasm you would show] in my presence but much more because I am absent, work out (cultivate, carry out to the goal, and fully complete) your own salvation with reverence and awe and trembling (self-distrust, ^[i]with serious caution, tenderness of conscience, watchfulness against temptation, timidly shrinking from whatever might offend God and discredit the name of Christ). (Amplified Version)

 

Verse 7 reads, "It is right for me to feel this way about all of you, since I have you in my heart...." So it is pointed out to me that the basis of his confidence in them does not guarantee eternal security for all Christians.
I don’t see the relevance to the topic. Paul is expressing his love for them. Verse 7 does not only relate to verse 6.

Paul was going to continue to help them with his prayers (his way of having them in his heart) (see verses 9-11).
Again I don’t see the relevance, because I guess I am not trying to prove a person can lose their salvation.

They teach that although Paul believed in the finished work of Christ it doesn’t equal eternal security, because Paul believed other things, too. (Rom. 6:10, Rom. 8:13; Gal. 5:19-21; 2 Tim. 2:12). Those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God, and that includes those in rebellion, in the pig pen, or however you want to say it. The arguments will never end. Sin is why there is a hell and why people will be in it. What I don’t understand is why people want to defend that Judas was not a son of perdition and could have been saved even though God’s foreknowledge of Judas’ actions led Him to reveal in Scriptures that Judas would be the son of perdition, but those same people still want to argue that God’s foreknowledge of us and our actions doesn’t mean He won’t keep us after regenerating our hearts and giving us His Spirit. Why would He do that if He knows we are going to lose our salvation anyway? I mean why bother to give poeple His divine nature if it isn't going to get them into heaven after all?

The debate will not end. The surety of your soul is what matters in this debate. I am sure of my salvation from beginning to end. That will not be shaken, because the surety is Christ, not me.

 

Lord Bless,
LT

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Permalink Reply by Rita Cullimore on February 19, 2011 at 6:02am

LB.

¹⁸ For Christ also ^msuffered^{2 n}once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, ^othat he might bring us to God, being put to death ^pin the flesh but made alive ^qin the spirit,

^m ch. 2:21; 4:1; See Rom. 4:25

² Some manuscripts died

ⁿ Heb. 9:26, 28

^o Rom. 5:2

^p ch. 4:1; Col. 1:22; [2 Cor. 13:4]

^q ch. 4:6

The Holy Bible : English Standard Version. Wheaton : Standard Bible Society, 2001, S. 1 Pe 3:18

²⁶ for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, ^lhe has appeared ^monce for all ⁿat the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

^l 1 John 3:5

^m ver. 12; ch. 7:27; 10:10; 1 Pet. 3:18

ⁿ [ch. 1:2; 1 Cor. 10:11]

The Holy Bible : English Standard Version. Wheaton : Standard Bible Society, 2001, S. Heb 9:26

I can only speak for myself in this...I don't sin deliberately. I am sure i do sin, however, Christ's Blood covered those sins though my accepting Christ as my Savior.

Also, I think one should consider Paul's writings to be letters written to people who were just learning about Grace, through his teachings, and he is explaining to them about receiving Christ as Savior. When he writes to an established church, his teaching changes tone.

I believe our Spirit, as Christians, keeps our soul in check. Our Spirit keeps us from sinning. (Throwing Christ down and following other gods.) Our Spirit keeps us loving others. Our Spirit keeps us obeying Christ. Lack of understanding all the Bible says might lead us astray but our Spirit draws us back to the right path. 

We often forget about the One Christ gave us as we accepted Him. He is God also. God abiding in us is going to keep us from committing a grievous sin. Christ paid the price for all sin. In accepting Him, His Blood covers the ones we commit. The Spirit residing within us teaches our spirit. Our spirit, in turn, guides our soul. Our soul might be unruly, but our spirit teaches our soul.

In distinguishing what is "milk" of the Word and what is "meat" of the Word, a discussion of OSAS is actually the "milk". We should be past this and actually discussing the gifts of the Spirit or some other true "meat".

Blessings,

Rita

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Permalink Reply by Rita Cullimore on February 19, 2011 at 4:17pm

Christ died for sin. Period. He was the propitiation. All sin, forever for those who accept Him giving up His life, shedding his blood. There is nothing else that can be offered for sin. Christ's Blood. That's it.

 

The sin that leads to death is rejecting Christ, the one Who paid it all. That is the sin unto death. There is no other way to eternal life, except accepting Christ as one's Savior.

 

When we exercise our free will in accepting Christ, we are going to continue to exercise it in continuing to follow Christ. And we are doing it freely.

 

I have no reason to rebel against the one Who paid for my Salvation, my eternal life. You show me the CHRISTIAN who rebels against God, and I will show you the person that has never accepted Christ as his/her Savior.

Rita

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