All About GOD - Growing Relationships with Jesus and Others
How do I share?
How do I share what I know, believe, and have experienced in the Spirit, without offending others or being judged as boastful?
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Amanda on
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Actually Nineveh was overthrown -- by repentance. The prophets in the bible all preached repentance. Even Jesus did. Matthew 4:17.
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Permalink Reply by RoyW on
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Chris,
I do not have the answers. I know it seems I am causing confusion. My only concern is you. If you are a prophet, it will stand. As far as who has to be 100% correct, that would only be the one that states that what he says is the Word of God. If someone would say I think God is saying this, that would not have to be 100% correct.
Chris, there is a huge controversy in the church. Part of the church says there are no more apostles and prophets. Part says there are apostles and prophets. I am trying to figure it out. I am more than willing to dismiss myself from the discussion. If questioning means I am in the wrong, then I should not continuing questioning you or the claims of apostleship or the office of the prophet.
My brother had a daughter die. He brought in an apostle to raise her. The apostle could not do it. Is that an apostle in your mind? I concluded they are not true apostles. Then you come along and you are a genuine person that obviously loves God and wants to serve Him. You are not a part of a church for some reasons. That is none of my business. If questioning is wrong, then I am wrong.
A prophet claiming that God heals all came to our church. He was not able to do that. Agabus was a prophet. What he prophesied came true exactly as he prophesied. He was a true prophet. Jesus says there would be false prophets coming at the last day. This could be the last day. I do not believe you are a false prophet. I have come to appreciate and love you. However, you must understand that some very wise and strong leaders would not agree that you are a prophet. I know you would say you don't care but I think when some are honestly attempting to understand the controversy, you should be willing to give help as I felt you were willing to do.
If I am offending you, I would like to stop. My position was to attempt to understand the prophets of 1 Cor 14. It does appear that these prophets do not have to be 100% correct as their message was to be judged. I want to know that if a prophecy was judged to be incorrect, what happened to that prophet? I also want to know what these prophets were prophesying. Were they prophesying the Gospel or were they prophesying future events? I do not think they were doing what John the Baptist or Agabus was doing. As I mentioned, I believe these are a different sort of prophet which you seem to agree with. If what was being prophesied were a blessing to the body, what was being said?
Can we take this verse and comment on it:
1 Co 14:1-5 Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy. 2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit. 3 But everyone who prophesies speaks to men for their strengthening, encouragement and comfort. 4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. 5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified. NIV
We are all encouraged to desire the gift of prophesy. It seems to me that those who had this gift were the ones considered to be the prophets. Is this in fulfillment of the prophecy that our sons and daughters would prophesy? Are these the prophets? If so, it appears to me that each church would have several or even many of these prophets as compared to other days when only a few would be prophets. There is much confusion over this in the church. It appears that the purpose of this gift is not necessarily telling secrets of others or such but a message that would edify or encourage the church. Am I getting off base here? I don't sense that the purpose of this person was to predict a drought or a stock market crash. Yet, I feel these are those that are identified as prophets - in this chapter at least. There are some excellent resources in this chapter as to the purpose of this gift. I think it is wonderful.
I am not trying to undo anything God is doing. I want to be in the middle of what He is doing.
Gotta go - I will be offline today.
Blessings, brother
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Permalink Reply by a servant (Chris) on
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Roy
My Brother if by my answers, I have offended you then I humbly ask to be forgiven. I was only responding to to some of your questions. I also appreciate and Love you my Brother. I am so very sorry for the lose your family; Our Family incurred when he lost his daughter. I do not profess to know very much about many things. I am no expert. From birth to several events that have taken place in my body, death was close a few times, and to my disability I have not been healed in the sense of "laying on of hands." Even as I have shared, I have been privileged to being the go between, "if you will" to many people getting healed. ALL GLORY GOES TO THE LORD. I have questioned things like that many times.
"It appears that the purpose of this gift is not necessarily telling secrets of others or such but a message that would edify or encourage the church." This is how i have seen much of what I have done. As I have shared with you Roy, I believe you will be a part of many things you might not of thought. The reason I brought up Jonah, was not to prove you wrong. But, there is a much larger point. I have been humbled at times for my pride. I have also been humbled for the sake of another. Not to brag, I do not want to undo anything or relearn the lessons I have gained for being humbled. For in these times we are ALL needed, so the Body to grow as One. The office and Calling on peoples lives I believe will be expanded in ways, at least our eyes have not seen.
The number one thing will always be Love. We need learn to be flexible without, compromising His Word and Love. Brother, if i share Wisdom in anyway, I believe it all from Him. I am not that intelligent. I truly seek His Will. Have i always been the best I should have been? No. I do however try.
I have questions about things, and I am seeking them out. I do not question your Love to me or mine to You Roy. Be Blessed this day my Friend.
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Roy
To the question about the difference between a prophet and person who give a Word of prophesy. I Prayed and pondered for a solid answer, at least how I function. People have come and asked advice, or shared a problem they are having. As we talk to one another, I am able to hear Wisdom that I know is not from me, but through me. Often, I will say, "did you just hear that?" That was Holy Ghost not me. So, I can say at least for me from my experience. I have seen and heard sound advice, correction in the direction or action one may have taken, or just a Word to a person or Church to edify. Many times on the spot kind of things. But, I can assure you I have never taken any of it lightly.
As I have pondered all of this over these past few days. I have known somethings that were about to happen. Told to Pray, prepare, and or shared with others to do the same. That part however goes into a gray area to me, at times. I would rather not go deeper into that here now. Trust your day was productive. And, you were able to accomplish your goals.
Lord Bless Brother
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Chris,
We had a great day but was very tired at the end. It is good that you are continuing your study of this issue. I am going to post more of my understanding of Scripture of the office of elder in attempting to explain the prophet in 1 Cor 14. This is incomplete.
What is the prophet? The prophet has a very special function in the New Testament church. Paul calls prophesying the most important gift to the church at its meetings. (1 Cor 14:2) Understanding what Paul is speaking of here in the prophet is somewhat confusing. Some would suppose that this individual is speaking of things to come but I don’t think that is necessarily correct. This prophet is speaking primarily to believers but if an unbeliever were to come in, the secrets of his heart would be laid bare. (1 Cor 14:25) I think it important to attempt to understand the development of Scripture and the operation of the church. I don’t think this evolved but I do think that Paul’s understanding did become clearer as he got older and more experienced. A common belief in the order of his letters written are: 1st Thes, 2nd Thes AD 52, 1st Cor, 2nd Cor, Galatians AD 55-57, Romans AD 57-58, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians AD 62, Philemon AD 63, Hebrews, Titus, 1st Tim AD 64-65 and 2nd Tim AD 66-67. His last order of business seemed to be the establishment of Scripture and the setting up of elders and deacons.
In the beginning of Paul’s writings, there is no mention of elders (pastors). Yet, the concept did exist in the church. We read of a use of this office, position or whatever it was in Acts 11. When the Gospel at first began to be preached to the Gentiles, there was a great move of God. Barnabas was sent to Antioch where a very large revival was breaking out. Many Gentiles were being saved. Barnabas also brought Saul (Paul) to Antioch where they spoke to great numbers of people. At that time several prophets came to Antioch and one (Agabus) spoke that a great famine was coming to the land. They determined to collect money and send to the Jews in Jerusalem (an apparent move to bring unity in the early church). They sent their gifts to the elders in Jerusalem. (Acts 11:30)
Who were these elders? The concept began during the captivity in Egypt. Even though the Jews were enslaved, they still had order. The rulers at the beginning were elders. Moses continued to develop this concept during the wanderings and especially when God placed His Spirit upon the 70 elders who ruled with Moses. When this happened, they began to prophesy though they did not do that again. The elder or presbyter as called in the New Testament had a special position in the nation of Israel. That concept continued over into the church. Paul eventually would turn the church over to the elders of the church.
I tend to believe that the Apostles and elders were of the same position but that not all elders were necessarily apostles. As the office of the apostle faded, the office of the elder began to gain prominence. There are only twelve and a few more apostles but many elders. If you were to approach the church in a city and wanted to speak to the people, towards the end of the 1st century you would have had to go through the elders of the church. Not all elders had the job of preaching and teaching but those who did were worthy of double honor. They were undoubtedly devoted to this labor and not much more. The others also ruled but did not necessarily do the teaching.
As churches were established, elders were appointed. Paul and Barnabas apparently began this practice of appointing elders. (Acts 14:23) The process seems to be as follows: candidates were chosen either by ballot or the Holy Spirit and presented to Paul and Barnabas who would lay hands on them for ordination. The elders would then become in charge of the church of the city in which they resided. The council of apostles and elders in Jerusalem would still be the governing body of the church at this time. However, this kind of government would be much less effective as the local governing body even though they may have not carried as much knowledge.
Today, the church is so splintered that it really does not operate this way. A city should have a council of elders. I cannot see that happening until the Chief Elder Himself returns. The Catholic Church comes the closest to proper church government. Those who have broken away are so divided on issues, they cannot begin to operate properly as God intended. Yet, the Catholic Church became so corrupt, no other recourse seemed proper.
The priests are elders. In the Protestant church, pastors would be the elders. With this understanding (if any agree), we can continue with the prophet.
Blessings.
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Roy
We agree.
Watching a Grandson for a few days. Will be on and off some.
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Chris,
We are both waiting on grandsons. I am happy to be in Wyoming with my three sons, one of whom is getting ready to have his first child.
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Roy to you and your congrats. I meant we are watching one of our 3 yr old Grandsons. As two of our Daughter and one Husband went to Baton
Rouge, with their church. And, the Dad of Ethan is picking him up after work until Sat. You are in our Prayers.Lord Bless You and Yours my Brother
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Permalink Reply by dean burrows on
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Hi Roy I think I have a different picture of an apostle or I am a little cinfused in what you are saying.
I believed an apostle to be one who is sent out (literal translation from the greek). The latin word actually translated- sent from. They were sent with a message and yes carried a certain authority due to the message. The Elders were set up to govern and have authority over the local church community. Two very different offices. The catholic church carried this on with the Jesuit Preist and their vast expansion world wide.
Today we do have those that are sent out with messages of great impotance. Firstly being the message of the good news. Exactly what Jesus had instructed the disciples to do as apostles.
From what I understand of what you are saying you have apostles as the authority of one community. If I am understanding your thoughts. This would eliminate the literal translation. Thus altering their purpose. -
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Dean,
You are correct about the meaning. I'm not sure where you are getting that I have Apostles as the authority of one community. Some do identify apostles like a missionary of today. However, it does appear very strongly in Scripture that the Apostle was one who had actually witnessed the resurrected Lord. These had actually seen Him alive after His resurrection. It also appears that Jesus had to personally call those who were to be Apostles.
The Apostles carried great authority over the entire church. Even Paul was subject to the Apostles. It was Peter and I am sure the other Apostles that did identify Paul's letters as Scripture which equated that with Old Testament Scripture. This tells us that Paul's letters were being circulated throughout the church assemblies.
I did notice that Chris also agreed with this assessment of the Apostles.
I'm not sure where the idea came from that I believed the Apostles only had local authority. -
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As I have shared, there are many parts of things in my past that, I am not lead or comfortable in sharing. Some would judge without true knowledge. It is also a very long story. Yet, I knew this had been coming for some time now. I did not have all the pieces, now I have more than before. When we read things, that explain our past. They describe what we know through living it. As LT shared before we started this group, “experiential.” Knowledge gained through experience.
There is a lot more I have not read of Mr. Maclaren expositions on this subject. This part was a reminder to me of a direction I was lead to, then.....Expositions of Holy Scripture
Alexander MaclarenTHE MAKING OF A PROPHET
II. Lastly, and only a word, the third stage here is—the purged spirit is ready for service.
God did not bid the prophet go on His mission till the prophet had voluntarily accepted the mission. He said, 'Who will go for us?' He wants no pressed men in His army. He does not work with reluctant servants. There is, first, the yielding of the will, and then there is the enduement with the privilege of service. The prophet, having passed through the preceding experiences, had thereby received a quick ear to hear God's calling for volunteers. And we shall not hear Him asking 'Who will go?' unless we have, in our measure, passed through similar experiences. It will be a test of having done so, of our having been purged from our evil, if, when other people think that it is only Eli speaking, we know that it is the Lord that has called us, and say, 'Here am I.'
For such experiences as I have been describing do influence the will, and mould the heart, and make it a delight to do God's commandments, and to execute His purpose, and to be the ministers of His great Word. Some of us are willing to say that we have learned God's holiness; that we have seen and confessed our sins; that we have received pardon and cleansing. Have these experiences made you ready for any service? Have they made your will flexible—made you dethrone yourself, and enthrone the King whom the prophet saw? If they have, they are genuine; if they have not, they are not. Submission of will; glorying in being the instrument of the divine purpose; ears sharpened to catch His lowest whisper; eyes that, like those of a dog fixed on his master, watch for the faintest indication from his guiding eye—these are the infallible tests and signs of having had lips and heart touched with the live coal that burns away our uncleanness.
So, friends, would that I could flash upon every conscience that vision! But you can do so for yourselves. Let me beseech you to bring yourselves honestly into that solemn light of the character of God, and to ask yourselves, 'How can two walk together except they be agreed?' Do not put away such thoughts with any shallow, easy-going talk about how God is good and will not be hard upon a poor fellow that has tried to do his best. God is good; God is love. But divine goodness and love cannot find a way by which the unclean shall dwell with the clean. What then? This then—Jesus Christ has come. We may be made clean if we trust in Him, and forsake our sins. He will touch the heart and lips with the fire of His own Spirit, and then it will be possible to dwell with the everlasting burnings of that flaming fire which is a holy God. Blessed are they that have seen the vision; blessed they that have felt it disclosing their own sins; blessed they whose hearts have been purged. Blessed most of all they who, educated and trained through these experiences, have taken this as the motto of their lives, 'Here am I; send me.' -
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I am sorry it is just the way I read your writings . The apostles were also sent out to carry the good news to communities without church. so in a sense today those going out on mission or church plantings etc. could be considered a form of apostle . Dont know that I would say they all are yet I am sure some are.
You say you see in scripture that Jesus appointed the apostle which is true. Yet I have to question in todays world I hear those saying they were lead by The Lord or in a sense appointed by the Lord to fill certain offices. With this thought in mind I wonder are these people truthful or where it is in scripture Jesus stopped appointing people to offices.
As Chris humbly says he has been given (appointed) the great gift of a prophet. If I am to believe him (which I do) then I must believe Jesus still appoints peoples to all the various offices. And as we are warned there will be many decievers, thus we must test them.
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