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How can a good God send people to Hell

I have friends who cannot believe in a God who sends decent people, maybe any
people, to hell.

Any ideas of what I can say?

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Permalink Reply by Stephen on December 11, 2008 at 4:48pm
Dear Lt,

I have met some wonderful people on this site and you sir are one of them. I am much encouraged by your approach to our seeming differences in our understanding of some scripture. Please know that I too wish peace and good will between us! I also see you as an educated and well spoken individual and last but not least a brother in Christ. May we always be on friendly terms! Please excuse my apparent lack in proper and good form in the art of writing and typing, as I fear I am not as educated as you are. However I suspect us to have more in common than our introduction would seem to suggest.
I am humbled and honored by your willingness to discuss with me The matters you mentioned. I am most certainly open to further discourse with you about the nature of hell and death, or for that matter any other matter you wish to discuss. Quite frankly I do not claim to have all the truth and try to be open to the better understanding of Gods word. Thank you being so willing to share with me your understanding of his word! I think you will teach me much and am eager to learn from one so concise and well structured in his thinking. Would that I could express my thoughts and logic so well as you!
Let us begin shall we?
In response to the first topic. First I think we can both agree most heartedly that God is love. Is scripture not clear about that? But I think we need to understand Gods love is of a higher order than ours.
We can scarcely comprehend Agape love.
Even his act of the flood I see as an act of mercy in that he brought his people through an awsome destruction and I understand the flood to have been necessary to preserve his people and the truth they held for posterity. God had to show the universe that he would always have a people worthy of saving and preserving.
I still maintain that the primary motivation for gods behavior is love. Even the awful things I have experienced in my life( some day if you wish I might share with you some of those things) I now see as acts of mercy and love. Even that he might have simply allowed those thing to happen to me I still trust in divine providence and the goodness of God. Actually many bad things happen to good people and because of his love we can see that they work out our best interest. Does he not punish even the righteous out of love?
It is true that I believe love to be the primary motivation of God but certainly not the only one. I most certainly agree that our father in heaven is much too large to be put in box of such limited understanding! You are also correct that i do not believe the wicked experience eternal punishment. They are destroyed, burnt up, turned to dust and forgotten. Does the word of God remember any names of I am sure many great men from the antideluvian age? Of course not. What purpose would it serve to remember a time when every thought of man was evil? Do we not approach such a time again?
God in his mercy allows us to forget that kind of wickedness. That time came to a final and screeching halt. A new age was ushered in. and so it begins again.
Back to the point again. lol
I see even Sodem and Gamorrah as an act of love or mercy. Yet again he goes to great lengths to preserve the righteous. I know i am in danger of straying again but i have to mention that I have never met a happy homosexual! I used to work with many of them and became friends with some. How anyone can live that kind of miserable lifestyle is beyond me. I have joined in with some in huge fits of crying remorse over what these poor poeple suffer in their ignorance and rebellion!
God simply, in my understanding, put these poor lost souls out of their misery! That may seem kind of harsh but what are you going to do when that kind of imorality is so pervasive? Is there again any memory of those who lived in those two citys except lot and part of his family? Is it not curious that they were consumed and destroyed like the wicked in the end times will be? Was not Sodom and Gomorrah reduced to ashes?
Suffice it to say that God has instituted many calamities and though we cannot know the mind of God, I trust in his divine providence. He knows the beginning from the end and will do whatever he sees fit to preserve his church and further his purposes on this planet and in the universe.
Even the destruction of the wicked in the final act of justice is merciful! Even this is an act of love. The reign of sin must be ended. In a way I see that a place of eternal torment does not end the sin question but rather lengthens it, Dare I say sustains it.
There is a huge difference In putting one to death and torturing them forever and ever. Even our poor excuse for a legal system recognizes that! Do we not as a society try to execute the condemned humanely?
Scripture calls the act of judgmnent God institutes on Satan and his prophets as a strange act. I believe God truly wishes even Satan would repent and become a part of his heavenly family again. We would do well to remember the high position he held in heaven. We would do well to remember how loved as an angel he was. How it must pain our father in heaven to have to do what he must to his once highest angel!
It is not so much that he cannot but rather he will not punish any man or woman eternaly. It simply is not in his nature.
I love the text you quote at the end of your well spoken point of logic! Deut. 32:4 A most beautiful text! I look forward, as we all do, to living in the actuall presence of him that rules with such perfect and merciful justice. Please forgive me for all the typos as I am certain there are many!
Thank you for listening to me and I assure you I have read your points with great interest. LT... you teach me and I appreciate your efforts! God Bless you and yours! love Stephen
Permalink Reply by Leonard T on December 13, 2008 at 2:54pm
Hey Stephen,

In response to the first topic. First I think we can both agree most heartedly that God is love. Is scripture not clear about that? But I think we need to understand Gods love is of a higher order than ours. We can scarcely comprehend Agape love.
No disagreement here.

Even his act of the flood I see as an act of mercy in that he brought his people through an awsome destruction and I understand the flood to have been necessary to preserve his people and the truth they held for posterity. God had to show the universe that he would always have a people worthy of saving and preserving.
Those saved experienced His love and mercy. Those that perished, though loved, experienced His judgment (justice).

I still maintain that the primary motivation for gods behavior is love. Even the awful things I have experienced in my life( some day if you wish I might share with you some of those things) I now see as acts of mercy and love. Even that he might have simply allowed those thing to happen to me I still trust in divine providence and the goodness of God. Actually many bad things happen to good people and because of his love we can see that they work out our best interest.
You are a child of God. The world, those who do not accept Jesus are not. Though they are loved, they are not the same to Him and are dealt with differently. Your judgment (judged as saved in Christ) is unto eternal life (John 3:16), the unbeliever’s judgment (judged by their sin in which still hangs over them) is unto eternal condemnation (john 5:28-29; Mat. 23:33;Heb 6:2; Jude :7).

Does he not punish even the righteous out of love?
This is key. He disciplines the saved out of love (Heb 12), but He punishes the wicked as lawbreakers, who are still under the penalty of the Law (Rom. 2;12). Though He loves both, He treats them differently now and through eternity. Note also the wording of Rev. 22:14-15 and note its placement in Scripture. These words are after the final judgment and the new city. The permanence of the wicked is established, though they reside outside of the gates of God’s kingdom, implying in the eternal Lake of Fire, for at that point there will be only two places. They are the kingdom of God and the Lake of Fire.


Does the word of God remember any names of I am sure many great men from the antideluvian age? Of course not. What purpose would it serve to remember a time when every thought of man was evil? Do we not approach such a time again? God in his mercy allows us to forget that kind of wickedness. That time came to a final and screeching halt. A new age was ushered in. and so it begins again.
Back to the point again.
We do not have the names, but we do have the fact of the time being wicked and God brought judgment upon the earth, to all except the eight. God did not choose for us to ignore that period, for He included it in His Word.


I see even Sodem and Gamorrah as an act of love or mercy. Yet again he goes to great lengths to preserve the righteous … God simply, in my understanding, put these poor lost souls out of their misery!
To have brought destruction upon the city and its inhabitants does not necessitate the cessation of the person, but rather the end to their earthly existence. (We will discuss this later regarding what happens to the soul or spirit after death.)

That may seem kind of harsh but what are you going to do when that kind of imorality is so pervasive?
Does a loving God ever act harsh? Or does He in His righteousness and justice bring judgment upon the wicked? Does one imply that the loving thing to do would be to exterminate them and not give them more time, another option and different way? Or was the act a just act?

Is there again any memory of those who lived in those two citys except lot and part of his family? Is it not curious that they were consumed and destroyed like the wicked in the end times will be? Was not Sodom and Gomorrah reduced to ashes?
There are no names listed, but Sodom and Gomorrah are remembered. Their remembrance as cities is not based on the action of the city, but rather its inhabitants. Judgment came because of their individual sin. Abraham pleaded for the city to a point and stopped. The city was that bad off that only Lot and his family were able to be rescued.

Suffice it to say that God has instituted many calamities and though we cannot know the mind of God, I trust in his divine providence. He knows the beginning from the end and will do whatever he sees fit to preserve his church and further his purposes on this planet and in the universe. Even the destruction of the wicked in the final act of justice is merciful! Even this is an act of love. The reign of sin must be ended. In a way I see that a place of eternal torment does not end the sin question but rather lengthens it, Dare I say sustains it. There is a huge difference In putting one to death and torturing them forever and ever.
The question is not what does He do, but rather why does He do it. Food for thought, this may not fit here, but it is what comes to mind: (Purely hypothetical) Can you imagine a lost sinner who had died being raised back to life (John 5:28-29). This person is brought before God who then proclaims “I love you, but my love alone cannot save you. You rejected my Son, Who died that you may have eternal life. I still love you, but my love cannot save you, therefore because I love you I will annihilate you.” Annihilation or a place of eternal torment? Which truly shows God as primarily acting out of love? I see righteousness and justice in action in such a scenario. I see the rule of law being applied to the one who is still under the Law. This does not make me happy, but neither could God overlooking sin, if He were able to.

Even our poor excuse for a legal system recognizes that! Do we not as a society try to execute the condemned humanely?
Many states reject the death penalty and prolong the individual’s life in a place of containment and what one could call as torture, due to the loss of freedom and environment in which one lives. An environment that has one constantly wondering if they will get shanked or raped, beat up or murdered.

Scripture calls the act of judgmnent God institutes on Satan and his prophets as a strange act. I believe God truly wishes even Satan would repent and become a part of his heavenly family again. We would do well to remember the high position he held in heaven. We would do well to remember how loved as an angel he was. How it must pain our father in heaven to have to do what he must to his once highest angel!
There is no blood sacrifice available for Satan and his fallen angels. God did not provide a way back for them, even if they wanted to. They are lost forever. Other than one’s belief in God’s love, what would lead you to believe that God would want Satan back, when we see the end of all things regarding him as eternal torment with the Lake of Fire having been prepared for him?


It is not so much that he cannot but rather he will not punish any man or woman eternaly. It simply is not in his nature.
You rest all your hope in His love. His righteousness and justice will be fulfilled and the lost, apart from Jesus, have no hope. They face an eternal judgment. We both agree on that, but disagree on the method … annihilation vs. eternal existence in a place of torment. For what it is worth at this point, I believe the greatest torment for the eternally lost will be that they will have seen Him at the final judgment, know he is real and true, only to be cast aside for eternity

MT 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, `Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

MT 25:44 "They also will answer, `Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

MT 25:45 "He will reply, `I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

MT 25:46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

What is the proclamation regarding Satan?

REV 20:7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth--Gog and Magog--to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

We will carry this as far as we can before we move on to number 2. Others are invited to join in.

Lord Bless,
LT
DakotaPermalink Reply by Dakota on December 10, 2008 at 7:13pm
when I am asked this question I always say you are asking the wrong question God doesn't send anyone to hell people send themselves by rejecting Jesus.God is a loving God because he sent his only son to die plus look at all the good things he did in the bible. It is our nature to sin so that makes something like this God on one side and man on the other side to get to God we need a bridge and Jesus is that bridge. So I honestly believe God doesn't send anyone to hell. people send themselves by rejecting the gift God gave us.
Permalink Reply by Carla on December 13, 2008 at 5:53am
Hi Everyone,

This may be slightly off topic..but I feel it fits in here somehow...

I am reading in Romans right now, and I have come across scripture that I have a question about:
Romans 5:12-21--Adam and Christ Jesus are contrasted.

5:12-When Adam sinned, sin entered the world. Adam's sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned.
13-Yes, people sinned even before the law was given. But it was not counted as sin because there was not any law to break.
14-Still, everyone died--from the time of Adam to the time of Moses--even those who did not disobey an explicit commandment of God as Adam did. Now, Adam is a symbol, a representative of Christ, who was yet to come.

To me, this shows that death is separation from God. Many people--Unbelievers are like the 'living dead'... walking around in this life, but dead because they are separated from God. If they are separated from God in this life, then they will be separated from God eternally.

Genesis 2:16,17-But the Lord God warned him, "You may freely eat the fruit of every tree in the garden-17-except the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. If you eat it's fruit, you are sure to die."

Obviously Adam and Eve did not physically die...it is a Spiritual death...a separation from God.

So then does death simply mean being separated from God..now and forever ? ...unless they accept the free gift of Jesus of coarse....

This has been on my mind since this conversation started, I have now located the scripture to ask the question....

Thanks Carla
Permalink Reply by Stephen on December 13, 2008 at 9:17am
Hi Carla,

I could not help but respond to your question as I see it as very applicable to our discussion. I think Carla your question shows a keen intelect and that you answered your own question and then drew away from it.
Dear... might I be permitted to ask you a simple question? Are Adam and Eve alive now? I think you are correct in your belief that death is the result of separation from our creator. That separation is what his plan of salvation is mending. He means to restore us to him. I contend that Adam and Eve were in a state of death when they had to leave the garden. Was not the garden where God communed with his creation, namely us!? The earth restored will be that place again.
It is when we start talking about the spirit that the issue becomes muddied. The only way I know to best explain this is to state that we do not have an immortal soul or spirit as you will. Only God is immortal. TIM 1:17. Jesus death on the cross proves this point. Just before his death did he not cry out to his father in heaven, "Father why hast thou forsaken me"!? God had to turn his face from Jesus as we know becaues Jesus became sin for our sake.
Yes I agree! To be separated from God is to be in a state of death!
God in his mercy gives us the choice as to whether that separation is to be permanent or not. Praise God!
As to the spirit, Yes we have a spirit. It is that breath of life described in GEN 2:7. Hence we become a living breathing soul. JOB 27:3
All of us die. EZEK. 18:20, and can only be immortal in the victory Jesus had over death on his ressurection. We, if we persevere, are awarded that same victory at the last trump. Actually we have that now by grace through faith in him that died for us!
I do not believe Adam and Eve wait for us in heaven. ACTS 2:29-34 They wait as we all must in the Grave. JOHN 5:28,29
Separation from God is death pure and simple Carla. It is only through the merits of our lord and savior Jesus the Christ that any of us find salvation and hope, the same hope that Adam and Eve died with!
Thank you Carla! I so enjoyed your keen observation! IHL Stephen
Permalink Reply by Carla on December 14, 2008 at 5:22am
Hi Stephen,
Thank you for stopping to answer the question. Regarding your question:
Are Adam and Eve alive now? No, not physically..not their soul, but Spiritually...we don't know, and it is not up to us to decide.

You have said the following in bold:

It is when we start talking about the spirit that the issue becomes muddied. The only way I know to best explain this is to state that we do not have an immortal soul or spirit as you will. Only God is immortal. Stephen, Our Spirit and Soul are separate. Mankind has a Spirit, but we are not a Spirit, those who have the Holy Spirit are 'Spiritually Alive' (we have already agreed on this), but unbelievers are 'Spiritually dead' (we have agreed on this also).

Our Spirit is the element which allows us to have an intimate relationship with God. Whenever the word Spirit is used, it refers to the immaterial part of man including the soul.
The word soul refers not only to the immaterial part of man but also the material part. Unlike man having a 'spirit,' Man IS A SOUL. In it's most basic sense, the word 'soul' means life. However, the Bible moves beyond 'life' and into many areas. One of those areas is to man's eagerness to sin (Luke 12:26). Man is naturally evil, and his soul is tainted as a result. The life principle is removed at the time of pyhsical death (Genesis 35:18, Jeremiah 15:2). The 'soul' as with the 'spirit', is the centre of many spiritual experiences (Job 30:25, Psalm 43:5, Jeremiah 13:17). Whenever the word soul is used, it can refer to the whole person, alive or after death.

The 'soul' and the 'spirit' are similiar in the manner in which they are used in the spiritual life of the believer. They are different in their reference. The 'soul' is man's horizontal view with the world. The 'spirit' is man's vertical view with God. It is important to understand that both refer to the immaterial part of man, but only the 'spirit' refers to man's walk with God. The 'soul' refers to man's walk in the world, both material and immaterial.
(taken from God Questions Ministries).

As to the spirit, Yes we have a spirit. It is that breath of life described in GEN 2:7. Hence we become a living breathing soul. JOB 27:3

My point is, that we are eternal beings....John 5:28 and 29
Jhn 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Jhn 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Stephen, death is separation from God, but it is separation in the sense of 'Eternal---now AND forever----Separation!

What matters is that people will rise either to life or death, regardless we are eternal beings.
Matthew 25:26
And they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous will go to eternal life.

Our Souls and Spirits can be divided. Hebrews 4:12.
For the word of God is alive and powerful, It is sharper than the sharpest two-edged sword, cutting between soul and spirit, between joint and marrow. It exposes our innermost thoughts and desires.

Anyhow, I am enjoying the conversation between you guys....carry on.

ps--Where there is anything which needs to be corrected in my interpretaion..please correct it. The Lord is working on me to teach me to be more teachable.

Blessings, Carla
Permalink Reply by Stephen on December 15, 2008 at 1:18am
Dear sister,
I do most emphatically agree with you that the spirit of God makes it possible for us to be intimate with God. In fact if I understand the plan of salvation, I see no other way. Indeed we must become new creatures in Christ. I do not believe that the newness includes immortality. We do recieve immortality when Jesus returns for us.1 COR 15:50-57
The only thing eternal about us now is the spirit of God that chooses our corruptible bodys to be its holy temple. It is there to convict us and to sanctify us, not make us immortal. That spirit is God's not mine. Neither is his immortality until i am glorified. It is then that I become a spirit creature.with a new body uncorrupted.
Are we born with the holy spirit in us? Like Adam and because of him we all die. Many great men of God have died with the obvious indwelling of the holy spirit. That indwelling as marvelous as it is does not make us immortal. We trust with the help of his spirit to believe his promise that when he comes for us we will be.
Furthermore I believe God when he told Adam he would die if he disobeyed him. Was it not sin that caused the separation from him and his creator? To further clarify, death is the result of sin that causes separation from our creator.
Carla.. I see HEB 4:12 as you do. I respectfuly submit that my soul and the holy spirit are two different things. The word of God is able to convict my soul through the influence of the holy spirit.
On a key point here I stand corrected. I stated that we have a spirit and that spirit is the breath of life that is described in GEN 2:7. That reads false. A better way to put that is, as Christians we have a spirit. As humans we have the breath of life that makes us a living, breathing soul.
For now I present this list of questions I found on a website I go to often. I hope and pray this helps to explain what I believe to be true. I often go to this website to study. Please note: amazingfacts.org
Thank you Carla for your observations. In Christian love You teach me!
LT?...If you would be so kind as to permit me some more time to respond to your observations. You as well present me with much food for thought and prayer!
God bless you all! Stephen

I feel the need to express that this first point about the comma treads on a rather slippery slope. But I do believe there is enough evidence in scripture that we can go around the point made about the comma. We would have to go back to the original greek or aramaic to see what the original was.


1. Didn't the thief on the cross go to paradise with Christ the day He died? (Luke 23:43 )
No. In fact, on Sunday morning Jesus said to Mary, "I am not yet ascended to my Father." John 20:17. This shows that Christ did not go to heaven at death. Also note that the punctuation of the Bible is not inspired, but was added by men. The comma in Luke 23:43 should be placed after the words "to day" rather than before, so the passage should read, "Verily I say unto thee to day, shalt thou be with me in paradise." Or, "I'm telling you today--when it seems that I can save no one, when I myself am being crucified as a criminal--I give you the assurance today that you will be with me in paradise." Christ's kingdom is set up at His second coming (Matthew 25:31), and all the righteous of all ages will enter it at that time (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) and not at death.
2. Doesn't the Bible speak of the "undying," "immortal" soul? (1 Timothy 1:17 )
No, the undying, immortal soul is not mentioned in the Bible. The word "immortal" is found only once in the Bible, and it is in reference to God (1 Timothy 1:17).
3. At death the body returns to dust and the spirit (or breath) returns to God. But where does the soul go? (Ecclesiastes 12:7 )
It goes nowhere. Instead, it simply ceases to exist. Two things must be combined to make a soul: body and breath. When the breath departs, the soul ceases to exist because it is a combination of two things. When you turn off a light, where does the light go? It doesn't go anywhere. It just ceases to exist. Two things must combine to make a light: a bulb and electricity. Without the combination, a light is impossible. So with the soul; unless body and breath are combined, there can be no soul. There is no such thing as a disembodied soul.
4. Does the word "soul" ever mean anything other than a living being? (Psalms 139:14 )
Yes, it may mean also (1) life itself, or (2) the mind, or intellect. No matter which meaning is intended, the soul is still a combination of two things (body and breath), and it ceases to exist at death.
5. Can you explain John 11:26, which says, "And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die"? (John 11:26 )
This refers not to the first death, which all people die (Hebrews 9:27), but to the second death, which only the wicked die and from which there is no resurrection (Revelation 2:11; 21:8).
6. Matthew 10:28 says, "Fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul." Doesn't this prove that the soul is undying? (Matthew 10:28 )
No, it proves the opposite. The last half of the same verse proves that souls do die. It says, "But rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." The word "soul" here means life and refers to eternal life, which is a gift (Romans 6:23) that will be given to the righteous at the last day (John 6:54). No one can take away the eternal life that God bestows. (See also Luke 12:4, 5.)
7. Doesn't 1 Peter 4:6 say the gospel was preached to dead people? (1 Peter 4:6 )
No, it says the gospel "was" preached to those who "are" dead. They are dead now, but the gospel "was" preached to them while they were yet living.
8. What about the souls crying out from under the altar in Revelation 6:9, 10? Doesn't this show that souls do not die? (Revelation 6:9 )
No. This cry was figurative, as was the cry of Abel's blood (Genesis 4:10). The word "soul" here means people (or living beings) who had been slain for their faith. Surely no one believes that souls who die literally lie under the altar, nor do people believe that the righteous beg God to punish their enemies. Rather, the righteous beg for mercy for their enemies, as Christ did on the cross (Luke 23:34).
9. Doesn't the Bible say Christ went and preached to lost souls in hell between His crucifixion and resurrection? (1 Peter 3:18 )
No, the Bible passage in question is 1 Peter 3:18-20. The preaching was done "by the Spirit" (verse 18) in Noah's day--to people who were then living (verses 19, 20). The "spirits in prison" refers to people whose lives were in bondage to Satan. (See Psalms 142:7; Isaiah 42:6, 7; 61:1; and Luke 4:18.)
Permalink Reply by Leonard T on December 15, 2008 at 2:33am
Hey Stephen,

Take your time, as well as we will need time to process things stated in order to understand or properly reply.

The information you posted above comes from Truth About Death by Doug Batchelor, who is a Seventh Day Adventist Preacher. This explains the differences in our views. I would encourage you to proceed with caution if you are using this material as your basic study guide. I will take the time to address his teachings when I get a chance. Do not have time this morning.

The following link will take you to some information on the group:

http://www.watchman.org/profile/sdapro.htm

At this point I should ask, are you a Seventh-Day Adventist?

Lord Bless,
LT
Permalink Reply by Stephen on December 15, 2008 at 10:29pm
Thank you LT,

I followed the link you provided. I read their perspective and followed what they understood the history of this movement to be. I found all of it to be pretty accurate. No LT.I am no lnger a Seventh day adventist. I left that community of believers some years ago. I am not a member of this community of believers anymore for many of the same reasons this site had problems with these people. I will name some of them if you are interested. I think the thing tt bothered me the most about this community is that these people saw themselves as the remnant church. to them that came down to you had to be a seventh day adventist in order to be saved. I was always uncomfortable with that tenet. Another point I had issue with was their idea about baptism. that an actuall physical dunking was necessary in order to be counted just. One had to preform the ordinance of baptism. That to me always ran contrary to salvation by grace through faith and added an uncomfortable element of works to salvation. I was brought into that church with a profession of faith as I was already a baptised member of the baptist church. But by their belief I had to baptised as an adventist. My profession as a born again christian was not enough. I had to follow through with their ordinance. That never sat well with me. I still find much truth in that community but knowledge of the truth is not enough! Did not God give Judaism an awsome truth to give to the world? As i see it they tied it up with their own traditions and belief system and failed to present the truth as God intended. In a very real sense they made what was given to them their God and worshipped their knowledge of the truth instead of the giver of that truth. I felt I had ran into the same dynamic in adventism unfortunately. I see this same dynamic in other organized religions and communities as well. Churches and groups of people tend to take an inordinate amount of pride in the knowledge they have been given. It seems all too easy to me to turn salvation by grace through faith into salvation by pride in the knowlege of truth. We are saved by grace through faith in the merits of his son Jesus the christ. Pure and simple. We are warned in scripture to not try and add to that or detract from it. Justification by faith I hold to be a fundamental and precious tenet and each of us must guard and check our hearts to protect its purity. That belief is what Ihave in common with other believers and that basic understanding is what I personally hold most dear. It to me is the most important truth.
Has Adventism had an affect on what I believe? Most certainly. Do I think everyone has to have Adventist ideals? Certainly not!
Thank you brother for allowing me this discourse. GBU Stephen
Permalink Reply by Carla on December 15, 2008 at 9:01pm
Hi Stephen,

your question: Are we born with the holy spirit in us? I think this question must be rhetorical... :)..but I'll answer anyway. Of coarse not!

A verse I came across in Hebrews today sent chills through me for those who don't know Jesus......
Hebrews 10:31
It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
God's power is awesome, and His punishment is terrible. He is sovereign, His power is unlimited; He will do as He promises. This Judgement is not for those who have accepted God's Mercy--BUT those who have rejected Jesus, falling into God's hands will be a dreadful experience.

my personal thoughts here....
Why would it be so dreadful if God was just going to annihilate people. If I wanted to live my life here on earth for myself, and was told that I would just be annilihated at the end of it, IF I didn't know Jesus or believe in God...I probably wouldn't care much...if there is no everlasting punishment..... Of coarse the motivation for eternal life is to be with Jesus Our Saviour---but for those who don't know Jesus--they don't know that! They just think ...okay great! I get to live my life for myself...reject God..and I just die in the end...I'm cool with that----These people don't see any real value in knowing and surrendering to the Lord, and they don't really see anything wrong with ceasing to exist after their life here is done....believe me, I know, my husband is an athiest. But the truth is, there is an everlasting punishment, not made for people, but made for satan and his demons... (Matthew 25:41-46). God does not want for anyone to perish. There is an unquenchable fire (Matthew 3:12)...shame and everlasting contempt (Daniel 12:2), A place where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched (Mark 9:44-49), a place of torments and flame (Luke 16:23-24), everlasting destruction (2 Thessalonians 1:9)..

So what can we do....Well, after acknowledging this as truth...we must work out our own Salvation with Fear and Trembling....knowing of God's tremendous Love for us all...

...Phl 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Deu 6:5 And you must love the LORD your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your strength.

1Pe 1:17 And remember that the heavenly Father to whom you pray has no favorites when he judges. He will judge or reward you according to what you do. So you must live in reverent fear of him during your time as foreigners here on earth.

The good news is: The Gospel of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. We are saved by faith.

Luk 7:50 And Jesus said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace." (numerous verses in the bible regarding this)

BUT...Jam 2:26 Just as the body is dead without breath, so also faith is dead without good works.

Faith with Good Works----That's another whole different forum. :)

Please again....please correct me where I need to be corrected...or have missed stuff.... I have much to learn....Blessings in Christ, Carla
Permalink Reply by Stephen on January 10, 2009 at 12:27pm
To all my brothers and sisters.

Please forgive me as I use the words of another to better explain my feelings and understanding of who and what God is. I simply wish to share that which has led me to a better understanding of myself and the lord I serve. I know these views are not popular these days but I am not a member of this site as some sort of popularity contestant. I am not here to contend but share the better understanding I found in years of study and what I believe to be the holy spirits leading. I am prompted to try and show that the God we all serve here is indeed a God of love and that love is such a huge part of what he is! Even when he judges he does so out of perfect love.

Hell-Fire A Twisted Truth Untangled

One of the most theologically confused subjects in the Bible is that of hell. It has been fumbled by the clergy and distorted by the laity until the word has become best known as a common vulgarism and expletive. Everywhere people are asking the same questions: What and where is hell? What is the fate of the wicked? Will a God of love torture people throughout eternity? Will the fire of hell ever burn the wickedness out of sinners?
These are questions which deserve sound Bible answers, and the controversy surrounding the subject should not discour- age us from exposing all the truth as it is in Christ. First of all, we need to understand that there is a heaven to win and a hell to shun. Jesus taught that every soul will be either saved or lost. There is no neutral place, and there are no second prizes. "The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, And them which do iniquity; and shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father." Matthew 13:41-43.
In view of these two ultimate destinies for all who have ever been born, how earnest we should be in seeking to find the right way. Christ said, "I am the way, the truth and the life." The only absolute safety for anyone is to take exactly what Jesus taught about hell. His doctrine is the only one which is wholly dependable and true. He said some will be cast into the fire, and some will shine forth in the kingdom.
Strangely enough, Christ has been charged by many religious leaders with teaching a falsehood on this subject. They have accused Him of teaching that an immortal soul flies away from the body at death to either heaven or hell. This is not what Jesus taught at all. He never gave the least intimation that some disembodied soul separates from the body at the time of death. And surely He did not ever give the impression that the wicked suffer an eternal torment as soon as they die.
Now let's get a sample of what Jesus really taught on the subject of hell. "And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell ..." Mark 9:43. These words of the Master prove beyond any shadow of doubt that it is the body which goes into the fire, and not some mystical soul. In Matthew 5:30 He spoke of the "whole body" being cast into hell. That means hands, feet, eyes, and all the other members of the physical body.
In contrast to the doctrine of Christ, modern pulpits resound with dramatic portrayals of imaginary souls leaving the body at death-souls that have neither substance nor shape. This view, popular though it may be, is totally contrary to what Jesus taught. Mark it well, for the great Master Teacher spelled it out repeatedly in the gospels-those who are cast into the fire of hell will go there with hands, feet, eyes, and all the physical features of the body. They will not go in some ethereal state of formless spirit or soul.
Now we are prepared to examine four great facts from the Bible which will illuminate most of the questions which have been asked about the fate of the wicked.


Punishment After
the Judgment

The first important fact about hell is this: The unsaved do not go to any place of punishment as soon as they die, but are reserved in the grave until the day of judgment to be punished. Christ explicitly taught this truth in the well-known parable of the wheat and the tares. After the householder had sown the wheat in the field, his servant came to report that tares were growing among the grain. His question was whether he should pull up the weeds while they were still very small. The householder's answer was, "Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them; but gather the wheat into my barn." Matthew 13:29, 30.
Now follow the words of Christ as He explains the meaning of the parable: "He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." Matthew 13:37-42.
No one can simplify the parable by enlarging on what Jesus said. It is so clear that a child can understand it. He said the tares represented the wicked people, and that they would be cast into the fire "at the end of the world." It was in the harvest that the separation would take place, and He plainly stated, "The harvest is the end of the world." How can anyone misconstrue these words of Christ? The whole idea of the wicked going into the fire at the time of death contradicts our Lord's specific teaching that they would be cast into the fire at the end of the world.
Since the judgment also takes place after Christ comes we can see how impossible it would be for anyone to be punished before that time. Justice demands that a person be brought into judgment before being punished. Peter declared, "The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished." 2 Peter 2:9. That certainly makes sense, doesn't it? Suppose a man should be brought into the court accused of stealing, and the judge said, "Put him away for ten years; then we'll try his case." Listen, even a human judge would not be that unfair! He would be impeached for such an action. Surely God would not be guilty of such a farce.
If we let the Bible mean what it says, there can be no doubt on this point. The wicked are "reserved" until when? Until the "day of judgment." To be what? "To be punished"! This means they cannot be punished before that judgment day. Does the Bible tell where they are reserved until then? Christ Himself said, "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." John 5:28, 29.
How plain! Jesus said that both good and bad will come forth from their graves to receive either life or damnation. This proves that from the time of death until they come forth in the resurrection they are not receiving any recompense or punishment. It all happens after they come forth. They are reserved until that day just as Peter indicated, but Christ spelled out where they will be reserved-"in the graves."
If plainer words are needed, listen to Jesus speaking in Luke 14:14, "Thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just." Or hear Him again in Matthew 16:27, "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works." When is "then"? When He comes with His angels. No reward or recompense is handed out until the resurrection of the just, when He comes with all the angels. These verses are beyond controversy. Taken in their context, they contain no ambiguity or hidden meaning.
Again Christ is quoted in the very last chapter of the Bible, "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be." Revelation 22:12. Here He reminds us that "every man"-every person-will receive his just reward when Christ returns to this earth. Job declares "that the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction. They shall be brought forth to the day of wrath." Daniel wrote that they which "sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." Daniel 12:2. Can there be any doubt where the wicked are reserved before facing resurrection, judgment, and punishment? We have the testimony of Peter, Daniel, Job and the Master Himself. There is no room to quibble. They are reserved in the grave.
Now we come to the second great fact about hell: None of the unsaved will be cast into hell-fire until after the second coming of Jesus at the end of the world. Although we have already seen substantial evidence on this point, let's look even more. Describing the punishment of the wicked, John wrote: "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." Revelation 21:8.


No Second Death
Before the Resurrection

Here the lost are pictured in the fires of hell, suffering the punishment for their sins. And what is that punishment? "The second death," says John. Do you realize what this proves about the wicked? It proves they will not be cast into the lake of fire until after the resurrection takes place. These people die the second death in the fire, but they cannot suffer a second death until they get a second life. They lived the first life in this world and died the first death, going into the grave. Before they can die a second death they must be resurrected-they must be given a second life. This, of course, is what happens at the end of the world. Jesus said, "All that are in the graves shall come forth."
Now after getting that second life in the resurrection, the wicked will be punished for their sins in hell-fire, "which is the second death." By the way, that second death is the final, eternal death from which there will be no resurrection. But the point to be noted is the time of this hell-fire punishment-it is after the resurrection at the end of the world. It does not take place at the time of the first death as so many have been led to believe.
Does the Bible tell us how the wicked will be cast into the lake of fire? Yes, it does. John describes the dramatic events that take place at the close of the millennium. "And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them." Revelation 20:7-9.
Here at the end of the millennium all the wicked people who have ever lived will come forth in the second resurrection. After describing how the righteous would come to life and reign with Christ during the thousand years, John wrote, "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished." Revelation 20:5.
The rest of the dead, of course, had to be the wicked, and their resurrection will provide opportunity for Satan to take up his continuing battle against God and the saints. He goes out to gather the host of lost ones, who have been raised from the dead. He has people to deceive once more, and he convinces them that they can prevail against the New Jerusalem which has descended from God out of heaven (Revelation 21:2). As they march up and encompass the city, the wicked are suddenly cut down by the devouring fire which rains upon them from heaven. This is the hell-fire which is the final punishment for sin.


Location of Hell

The Bible clearly asserts that this fire devours the wicked right here on "the breadth of the earth." Every Bible writer who speaks on the subject of hell adds new insight on this second death of the wicked. Peter states: "But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men." 2 Peter 3:7. Then he goes on to describe the day of the Lord which will melt the very elements with fervent heat.
The language of Peter is very explicit about the place of punishment for the un- godly. He says this earth is reserved for that fire which will bring judgment and perdition to the wicked. Their punishment will be in this earth. Isaiah declared, "For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion. And the streams thereof shall be turned into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch." Isaiah 34:8, 9.
The prophet portrays the entire planet enveloped in the destroying fire. Even the streams and dust are transformed into an exploding combustion of pitch and brimstone. Isaiah says this is God's vengeance and "recompense" at the end of the controversy.
David adds to the testimony with these words, "Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire, and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup." Psalm 11:6. Notice that he uses almost the same words as John and Peter in describing the fate of the wicked. All agree as to the place of the punishment (the earth) and the agent of punishment (fire).
This brings us to the third great fact about the subject of hell. Hell as a place of punishment will be this earth turned into a lake of fire at the Day of Judgment. But this also raises some other very interesting questions about the fate of the lost. One of the most intriguing and puzzling has to do with the length of punishment. How long will the wicked continue to live and suffer in that fire?
No one can answer that question precisely because the Bible says they will be punished according to their works. This means there will be degrees of punishment. Some will suffer longer than others. But one thing we can say with certainty-the wicked won't live in that fire throughout eternity.


Hell-Fire Not Endless

There are several reasons for being so sure on this point. First of all, this earth is also declared to be the final home for the righteous. Jesus said, "Blessed are the meek: For they shall inherit the earth." Matthew 5:5. Peter, after describing this earth exploding and burning with a great noise, saw a new earth filled with righteousness. "Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness." 2 Peter 3:13.
The wicked cannot continue to live in this planet because it has been specifically promised, in its entirety, to Abraham's spiritual seed (Romans 4:13). After being purged of all the curse of sin, it will revert to the first dominion, and to God's original plan for it. It will be finally what God intended it to be-a perfect home for a perfect people.
In the second place, the wicked cannot continue to live in this earth because they have never trusted Christ for eternal life. It is only the righteous who receive the gift of eternal life. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish. ..." John 3:16. But what about those who don't believe in him? They surely will perish. The Bible says, "The wages of sin is death." Romans 6:23. Please don't miss the pointed simplicity of these verses. The wicked are never promised life. They are promised death-eternal death. Only the righteous are promised life-eternal life.
But there is only one way to get life without end, and that is through faith in Jesus. John describes it this way: "And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life." 1 John 5:11, 12. Let me ask you a question: Do those wicked ones in the lake of fire have the Son of God? Of course not. Then how could they have life? John says, "Ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." 1 John 3:15. Will those murderers in hell-fire continue to have life for eternity? Never.
It would be the rankest heresy to believe that eternal life could be obtained from some other source than Jesus. Where would the wicked get it? Paul declares that Jesus Christ "hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel." 2 Timothy 1:10. Inspiration reveals no other source of immortality except through the gospel of Christ. Where is a text in the Bible which describes the conferring of immortality upon the wicked? You can read often about the righteous receiving it, but never the unbeliever.
Paul said, "Behold I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality." 1 Corinthians 15:51-53.
This text speaks of a certain point in time when the righteous will be instantly changed into immortal beings. That time is still future. It occurs when Jesus returns, at the last trumpet sound, when the resurrection takes place. Nowhere in the Bible do we read of the wicked being changed in this manner. And it is precisely because they never receive this gift of eternal life that they are unable to keep living in the lake of fire.
It is inconceivable and unreasonable to fabricate such an event. It is contrary to the Bible and repugnant to the senses. Ezekiel declared, "The soul that sinneth, it shall die." Ezekiel 18:4. No matter what we understand a soul to be, let's accept the simple Bible fact that it can die and will die as a result of sin.
If the wicked live eternally in the fire, then they have the same thing as the righteous except in a different place. Who could give them eternal life but Christ? John 3:16 settles this issue so clearly and simply. Those who do not believe in the only begotten Son will perish. They will die. They will die the second death-an eternal death from which they will never be raised. That death will never end. It is an endless, eternal punishment, because it is an endless, eternal death.


Unquenchable Fire

Someone may raise this question: What about the unquenchable fire that burns the wicked? Doesn't that mean it will never go out? Of course, it doesn't. To quench means to extinguish or put out. No one will be able to put out the fire of hell. That is the strange fire of God. No one will be able to escape from it by extinguishing it. Isaiah says of that fire, "Behold, they shall be as stubble; the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame: there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor a fire to sit before it." Isaiah 47:14. After it has accomplished its work of destruction, that fire will go out. No one can deliver themselves from its flame by putting it out, but finally not a coal will be left. So say the Scriptures.
Jeremiah prophesied that Jerusalem would burn with a fire that could not be quenched (Jeremiah 17:27), but it burned down to ashes (2 Chronicles 36:19-21). Read those verses and see how the Bible uses the word "quench." It does not mean fire that will never go out. It only means what it says, "unquenchable." It can't be quenched.
And what can we say about the expressions "eternal" "everlasting" which are used to describe the fires of hell? There is absolutely no confusion or contradiction when we allow the Bible to supply its own definition of terms. Many make the mistake of applying modern definitions to those biblical words without reference to their an- cient contextual usage. This violates one of the most fundamental rules of interpretation.
The fact is that eternal fire does not mean a fire that will never go out. The same expression is used in Jude 7 concerning the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrha. "Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."
It is quite obvious that Sodom is not still burning today. The Dead Sea rolls over the place where those ancient cities once stood. Yet they burned with "eternal fire," and we are told that it was an example of something. What is it an example of? "And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly." 2 Peter 2:6.
There it is! That eternal fire which brought Sodom to ashes is an example of what will finally happen to the wicked. If this text is true, the same kind of fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrha will also burn the wicked in the lake of fire. It will have to be eternal fire. Does that mean it will also burn the wicked to ashes? The Bible says Yes. "For behold, the day cometh that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch ... And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts." Malachi 4:1, 3.
No words of any language could make it more forceful or clear. This eternal fire burns up eternally. Even Satan, the root, is finally consumed. How consistent the whole picture appears as we let the Bible explain its own terms. What devious manipulation of words would be required to evade the obvious meaning of these words. Yet those who have been prejudiced by a lifetime of tradition can read those words "burn them up ... they shall be ashes" and still insist that the wicked are alive and suffering. Admittedly, there are some ambiguous verses on this subject, but we are finding that they all harmonize when the context is considered, and the Bible is allowed to be its own commentary.
Even Christ's words in Matthew 25:46 are not confusing when we the obvious meaning. "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." Many are troubled over the expression, "everlasting punishment," but notice that it does not say "everlasting punishing." Whatever the punishment is, it will last eternally. Does the Bible tell us what the punishment is? Of course. "The wages of sin is death." Romans 6:23. So Jesus was simply saying that the death would be everlasting. It would never end. It would never be broken by a resurrection.
Paul simplifies it further with these words: "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished ... " Now, listen, Paul is going to tell us what the punishment is. "Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power." 2 Thessalonians 1:8, 9. So the punishment is everlasting destruction - a destruction that is everlasting. From it there will be no resurrection or hope of life.
But what about that worm which dieth not? Many have read the words of Jesus about hell, "Where their worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched." Mark 9:45, 46. Some have interpreted the worm to be the soul. Is that what Jesus meant? Nowhere in the Bible is there any allusion to the soul as a worm.
In this instance Jesus used the word "Gehenna" for the word "hell." It so happened that Gehenna was an actual place of burning just outside the walls of Jerusalem. No doubt, Christ's listeners could see the smoke curling up from the Valley of Gehenna, where dead bodies and garbage were constantly being burned. If anything fell outside the destructive flames, it was quickly consumed by maggots or worms. With the vivid scenes of utter extinction before their eyes, Jesus used the Gehenna fire as an example of the complete destruction of hell-fire. The fire was never quenched, and the worms were constantly at work upon the bodies-a picture of total destruction.
Perhaps the most easily misconstrued text about hell is John's allusion to the smoke ascending "for ever and ever." For those who are unfamiliar with other uses of this phrase in the Bible, it can be very confusing indeed. But a comparison of verses in both Old and New Testaments reveal that the words "for ever" are used 57 times in the Bible in reference to something that has already come to an end. In other words, "for ever" does not always mean "without end."
Many notable examples could be cited, but two or three are noteworthy. In Exodus 21, the conditions are laid down concerning the law of servitude. If a servant chose to continue serving the master he loved rather than his freedom when it came due, then his ear was to be pierced with an awl and the Scripture declares, "He shall serve him for ever." Verse 6. But how long would that servant serve his human master? Only as long as he lived, of course. So the words "for ever" did not mean without end. Hannah took her son Samuel to God's temple, where he would "there abide for ever." 1 Samuel 1:22. Yet in verse 28 we are plainly told, "As long as he liveth he shall be lent to the Lord." The original meaning of the term "for ever" indicates an indefinite period of time. Generally it defines the period of time in which something can continue to exist under the circumstances prevailing. Even Jonah's stay in the whale's belly is described by him as "for ever." Jonah 2:6.
Someone may object that this could also limit the life of the righteous in heaven, because they are described as glorifying God forever. The terms are the same for both the saved and the lost. But there is one tremendous difference in the circumstances involved. The saints have received the gift of immortality. Their life now measures with the life of God. Immortality means "not subject to death." The words "for ever" used in reference to them could only mean "without end," because they are immortal subjects already. But when "for ever" is used to describe the wicked, we are talking about mortal creatures who can die and must die. Their "for ever" is only as long as their mortal nature can survive in the fire which punishes them according to their works.


Soul and Body Destroyed

This brings us to the final fact concerning the fate of the wicked. After the unsaved are punished according to their sins, they will be wiped out of existence, both body and soul. Jesus states it very simply, "And fear not them which kill the body ... but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Matthew 10:28.
In the light of this statement, how can anyone continue to claim immortality for the wicked? Jesus, the only One who can bestow the gift of life, rejects the possibility that those in hell can continue to live in any form whatsoever. The life will be snuffed out for eternity, and the body will be annihilated in the flames.
The psalmist wrote: "But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away." Psalm 37:20. "For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be." Verse 10.
The most powerful, definitive words in human language are used to describe the destruction in hell, but people still insist that the writers do not really mean what their words express. "Destroy," "consume," "burn up," "devour," "death"-do these words have some mysterious, opposite meaning in the Bible than they have in other books? We have no reason to think so. The fact is that theology has made an ogre out of our great God of love. He has been portrayed as more cruel than Hitler. Even though Hitler tortured people and experimented with them, finally he allowed them to die. But God will keep these deathless souls alive for the purpose of seeing them writhe and scream throughout eternity, so the theologians claim.


God's Justice Vindicated

Not only is such a picture misrepresentative of God's love, it also distorts His justice. Think for a moment about the implications of a doctrine that would consign every lost soul to an immediate, never-ending hell at the time of death. Suppose a man died 5,000 years ago with one cherished sin in his life. His soul would go instantly into the fire to be tormented for eternity. Then picture another death; that of Adolph Hitler, who supervised the deaths of millions of people. According to the popular doctrine, his soul also would immediately enter hell to suffer eternally. But the man who was lost because of only one sin, will burn 5,000 years longer than Hitler. How could that be just? Would God deal in such a manner? It would contradict the Bible statement that each one must be punished according to his works.
There are two extreme views in current circulation concerning the punishment of the wicked. One is Universalism, which contends that God is too good to allow anyone to be lost. The other is the awful doctrine of endless torment which would perpetuate for all eternity a dark abyss of anguish and suffering. Both are wrong. The truth lies in between. God will punish the wicked according to their works, but He will not immortalize evil in the process.
I truly believe that many honest souls have been turned away from God because of their revulsion at this misrepresentation of His character. They can't love someone who would arbitrarily keep evil people in endless torment with no purpose in view. No rehabilitation is possible. Only a vindictive spirit of revenge could be served by such an unspeakable arrangement. Is God like that? After hearing the Bible truth about hell, a bank president threw his arms around my shoulders and said, "Joe, I'm a believer again. For years I've been an agnostic because I had been taught that God would torture the wicked eternally."


No More Pain Or Death

Someday soon God will have a clean universe. All the effects of sin will be banished forever. There will be no sin, no sinners and no devil to tempt. It will be just exactly like God planned it in the beginning.
John described that future home in these words, "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." Revelation 21:4.
Can you find any room in those precious words for any suffering on the part of anybody in the whole recreated universe? God said crying and pain would be no more. Do you believe His Word or do you choose to believe man's surmising? Just four verses before writing this promise, John described how the wicked would be cast into the lake of fire. "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away." Revelation 20:15; 21:1.
That lake of fire is right here on planet earth according to Revelation 20:9. But please notice that this place where the wicked burn will pass away, and God will re-create the new earth in its stead. The new Jerusalem descends before that fire devours the wicked, and afterwards, according to verse 4, there will be no more sorrow, pain, crying, or death. In order for no more pain to exist, there can be no eternal hell existing either. The two things are mutually exclusive of each other. We should thank God every day that His plan will finally bring an end to suffering. Satan will not be here to cause pain, and God promises that His new kingdom will not even contain a shadow of a pain.


Hell Not Intended For Us

Finally, we should rejoice that hell was never intended for you and me. Jesus said it was "prepared for the devil and his angels." Matthew 25:41. If we stumble into that fire, it will be the most colossal blunder we could ever make. You would have to go there over the broken body of Jesus Christ and in spite of the Father's love, the Holy Spirit's pleading, and the heavenly influence of a million angels. The most unanswerable question in the whole world is this: "How shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation?" There is no answer because there is no escape except through Christ and His cross. No one will be lost because he sinned, because everyone has sinned. No one will be left out of heaven because he lied, stole, or committed adultery. The only reason anyone will be lost is because he refuses to turn away from his sin into the arms of a loving Saviour who stands ready to pardon and cleanse from all unrighteousness. "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16.

Forgive me for the length of this posting but I found the length necessary to cover most of the points we previously discussed. I love my God so much and am so blessed by understanding a little bit of how perfect his plan is and how it all works together for us! If I could somehow sum up my experience in Christ it would have to be explained with "GOD IS LOVE". Everything I have come to learn about him tells me that.
Permalink Reply by Leonard T on January 10, 2009 at 12:55pm
Stephen,

This is nothing new. It is the same old argument ... just longer. The author misses on several fronts. I will not attempt to address each issue, but give a blanket response and be done on the subject, lest something new is introduced.

He misplaces "Who, when and where" in future events. He takes many things out of context. His time lines are off. He misunderstands death. He misunderstands eternal life. His view of salvation, or the reason one is lost is distorted and candy coated.

Lastly, if one states "It is so plain" or "so claear" or "so simple to understand" often enough, does it make it true?

I read the full article and am not swayed in the least toward the errors of this article and belief.

I respect you, but based on Scripture disagree with the view represented by the post

May God guide you on your journey for truth,
LT

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