All About GOD - Growing Relationships with Jesus and Others
Evolution?
Is it possible to be a Christian and believe in evolution?
I'm not Christian per se, I just think it is possible to believe in a high power than ourselves AND embrace & understand scientific facts and theories at the same time.
When I hear of fundamentalists claiming evolution is simply wrong, it reminds me of the folly of The Church when it accused Galileo of heresy because he discovered the earth orbits the sun.
I'm not Christian per se, I just think it is possible to believe in a high power than ourselves AND embrace & understand scientific facts and theories at the same time.
When I hear of fundamentalists claiming evolution is simply wrong, it reminds me of the folly of The Church when it accused Galileo of heresy because he discovered the earth orbits the sun.
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Seamus Muldune on
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Hello, well I ask to facilitate discussion about this topic. All of Christian friends do infact believe in evolution, and neither them nor I completely understand the basis for other Christians to strictly believe in creationism.
I don't want you to take this as an attack on anyone who does believe in Adam and Eve. Thats is why I want to have this talk, as opposed to ignorantly blast someone else's view without regard or even knowledge of the basis of their belief.
My attempt at educating myself :)
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Permalink Reply by Carla on
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Okay..I can see your point.
I personally believe that God created the world as the bible says. The reason that I believe that, is because I believe that God wrote the bible through people. I believe that He is a God who is trustworthy, and HE cannot lie. It's not that He won't lie. or chooses not to lie. It is that He cannot lie...due to who He is. So if I say that Evolution is a possiblilty, I am then saying that it is possible that God has lied. Therefore, I strictly believe that God created the world. I believe that He is a God who can and does create something from nothing....He certainly has recreated my life :).
There are many Christians who do believe in Evolution..many of whom have been through the seminary.
btw---Which scientific facts and theories are you referring to?
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Ah there is the disconnect for me: the literal translation of the Bible. Once again, I am not a Christian myself, but I do own a Bible and have read it a number of times, as well as the Koran. I find both books to be a vast wealth of knowledge...but more over, they are invaluable sources of moral and ethical studies.
The parables teach us amazing lessons...but I believe they are just that, parables. I believe to take these stories literally at face value opens to the risk of losing the lesson all together.
I think its tantamount to reading 'The Little Engine That Could' and come away believe there was a civilization of talking train-engines, instead of learning the lesson of perseverance that the story intends to convey in a creative and memorable way.
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hmmm......I see.
The parables are indeed great moral teachings...offering a wealth of knowledge indeed. However, it is so much more than that....
take Matthew 5:3-17 for example....and also the famous 'Sermon on the Mount'.......One of my favourite Christian authors has explained it so beautifully as follows:
When we first read the statements of Jesus they seem wonderfully simple and un-startling, and they sink unobserved into our conscious minds. For instance, the Beatitudes seem merely mild and beautiful precepts for all unwordly and useless people, but of very little practical use in the stern workday world in which we live. We soon find, however, that the Beatitudes contain the dynamite of the Holy Ghost. They explode as it were, when the circumstances of our lives cause them to do so. When the Holy Spirit brings to our remembrance one of these Beatitudes we say-"What a Startling Statement that is!" and we have to decide whether we will accept the tremendous Spiritual Upheaval that will be produced if we obey His Words. That is the way the Spirit of God works. We do not need to be 'born again' to apply the Sermon on the Mount literally. The literal interpretation of the Sermon on the Mount is child's play; the interpretation by the Spirit of God as He applies our Lord's Statements to our circumstances is the stern work of a saint. The teaching of Jesus is out of proportion to our natural way of looking at things and it comes with astonishing discomfort to begin with. We have slowly to form our walk and conversation on the line of the precepts of Jesus Christ as the Holy Spirit applies them to our circumstances. The Sermon on the Mount is not a set of rules and regulations; it is a statement of the life we will live when the Holy Spirit is getting His way with us. ~Oswald Chambers
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Honestly, though I still perhaps disagree, I do now understand where your viewpoint comes from. I thank you for putting into context why some Christians read the Bible in a different way than others. :)
As previously mentioned, I am not Christian, or a member of any other faith, but I do regard the power that religion in general has and am facinated by it. Once again thank you for entertaining my post and expanding my viewpoint!
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You are welcome! Anytime!
I am certain that you will have other replies here.. :) I hope you can stay!
Blessings, Carla
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Oh I intend on staying, I do love a good theological/philosophic discussion. :)
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Permalink Reply by Derek Hill on
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Hello Seamus,
You say that you want to find out if it is possible to be a Christian and believe in Evolution. And that this involves embracing scientific facts and theories.
Could you define for me what you mean by "evolution" please? Just as the word "christian" is used loosely and can cover many things, so evolution is used loosely too.
For example, what scientific facts are you embracing and understanding? And what theories? By the way, a theory is only a theory and is not in the same catagory as a fact.
There are of course christians who accept the theory of evolution, and there those that do not. And there are leading scientists in both camps. What christian creationists want is a discussion on the whole issue, and not to be denigrated or lampooned because they accept different ideas from others.
There are also scientists who are not christians who say evolution is simply wrong.
I would say this is quite different from the case of Galileo. The world has changed. Now free debate is allowed, even encouraged. So let it be a free debate and not accuse those who disagree with us of folly.
Unfortunately atheists are using theories of evolution to attack any belief in God, and the debate descends into a slanging match. On this point, the issue is really one of believing:
1) That there is a supernatural, spiritual realm, that God, who is eternal, infinite, omnipotent and omniscient exists. And that He is transcendant, and separate from his creation, though he holds everything in existence by his own will, decree and power. This is what I believe for example, and most christians as well.
I need to add a footnote here; believing in a supernatural realm, higher powers and so on, can become a dangerous minefield if there is no acceptance and submission to the Supreme God and Creator of all. The first commandment in the Bible is "You shall have no other gods before [or besides] me". Exodus chapter 20 verse 3 New International Version.
Or
2) That only the physical, material realm exists. That only what we can see or feel etc. with our five physical senses truly exists. Outside of this nothing exists. Therefore God does not exist. This is the position of atheists.
[though I notice that Richard Dawkins who claims that he is an atheist thought of putting out a slogan on London buses saying "There's probably no God. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life." Has he changed his position from there is no God to... probably there is no God? If so why?
My riposte is: .. if there is a probability that God does not exist, then there is a probablility that He does.]
Seamus, when you say that you believe in a higher power, could you define that for us please? Or if you prefer, which of the two positions I have outlined above do you find yourself agreeing with?
If neither, then what is your belief?
Derek
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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on
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Jonathan,
I respect you regarding this issue and pulled the paragragh you refered to. I am still learning :-)
Thanks,
LT
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Jonathan,
I enjoyed your contribution here. Thankyou for your input. I found it very helpful.
I agree with you, the unthinking acceptance of the theory [though which one?] of evolution in some form or another is not only affecting our society as a whole, it is also affecting many Christian churches as well. Often there just does not seem to be an awareness that there is a world of difference between an upward march of evolution, and therefore of mankind, [see for example J. Bronowski, "The Ascent of Man"] and the fall into sin of our first parents, Adam and Eve, with the subsequent work of God bringing salvation to all who who will believe the Gospel.
For example, if evolution is correct, then I think there is no such thing as sin. We are evolving animals.
However, if creation by God who made all things and saw that they were good, is correct, then the scenario is totally different. The rebellion of our first parents changed the whole course not only of their own lives and those of their children but of the whole world as well. Which you also put very well.
I am comming to the conclusion that the person who accepts evolution, of necessity, has to think in a secular way. It may be dressed up in evangelical speak, and may sound even "spiritual" but it is essentially secular. God here is not transcendent, He is only immanent, which is better expressed by using pantheistic terminology which is used in liberal theology and the New Age movement.
I don't know if you would agree with me on this. I would welcome any input you may have on this point.
Secondly I am coming to the conclusion that believing in a transcendent Creator, of necessity, leads us to think first of God as Supernatural, and that His creation has its being in His almighty supernatural power. It is not that we don't recognise a material world, we should, but everything exists from Him, through Him, and for Him and for His glory.
This leads to a completely different approach from a secular one. I think a good example of this may be the question of design. Richard Dawkins tries to show that evolution has brought about all the wonderful design that we see in the world. Personally I think he has failed spectacularly because he has left so much out of his equations. It gets even worse in his subsequent work "The God Delusion". Someone has even written a book in reply called "The Dawkins Delusion".
If, instead of a "blind watchmaker", we believe in God who made all things in His own wisdom and power, then we expect to see design in everything we see and study. Not only that, as the Divine Watchmaker, we can see not only "how" He made everything [as far as our reason can take us], we also are given the reason "why" He made everything. The "watch" does something and has a purpose.
And I haven't even mentioned the fact of "information" in creation.
Coming to your point about the six days of creation. I too hold that they have to be days of 24 hours. Each day is is introduced with "and there was evening, and there was morning - the first day" Gen 1.5. And so on. Evening/morning by the way is the Jewish way of calculating the day, and evidently comes from the beginning. They begin their day at 6pm and finish it at 6pm the next. The exegetical rule to follow here is, the text should be taken in its plain, grammatical meaning unless there is an overriding necesity from other parts of Scripture to interprete it otherwise.
As all other interpretations of these 6 days depend, not on the text, nor on the Scriptures, but on theories outside of Scripture, then they are to be rejected. Does this lead us into difficulties? This does not matter at all. We are not at liberty to change the meaning of the text to make it easy for ourselves, rather we need to wrestle with the Scriptures until we come to understand them as far as we can.
By the way, have you noticed the parallelism here?
Now, the earth was formless and empty... Gen 1.2 Hebrew: toho and bohu.
day 1 to 3 give "form" to the world [and what glorious landscapes there are!]
day 4 to 6 "fill" first the heavens, then the world with all the living creatures in it including Adam and Eve.
Day seven rounds out the week of seven days with a day of rest.
You rightly took us to Exodus 20.11 to begin to give your reasons as to why you accept a young earth creation. Indeed, throughout Scripture, we find the same insistence that Genesis is the foundation upon which all else is built. Remove that foundation and the building falls.
So God bless you Jonathan, the Lord uphold you and strengthen you as you labour for Him and for His glory
Derek
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