All About GOD - Growing Relationships with Jesus and Others
DOES ONE GOD MAKE A TRINITY?
I have been analyzing the concept of the trinity for some time. I went back to the roots of christianity. It seems that this concept was created over time. It was molded over a few hundred years and as time went on it seemed that we were giving in to the world instead of presenting truth.
Jesus said my father is a spirit being and many will be called to worship him in spirit and truth. Jesus said the words i speak i do not spreak on my own authority but the father who dwells in me he does the works. Jesus said, and this is eternal life that they may know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.It says there is one God and father who is above all through all and in you all. It says one God and father who all the heavens and earth is named.But where does it say trinity. The phrase isnt in the bible anywhere. It was a creation of man with the backing of lucifer. It was an attempt and succesfully presented to inject polytheism into christianity just as it has been injected into other religion.
God is as the air within a balloon . The balloon is empty and has no shape or form. Once air is blown into the balloon it has substance and form. It has mass it takes up considerable space compared to its uninflated form.It is now filled with air. You cannot see air nor touch it though we know it exists. Now if we pop the balloon or let the air out the balloon goes back to its origional shape.God an invisible spirit being inhabits that which is not invisible manefesting himself through that which is able to be seen.
God has shown me that he is the light and jesus is the lamp that the light is within. We if uninitiated believe the lamp is in fact the light but as we grow older we realize that the electricity is that which gives light. It the lamp is just the vessel that holds the electricity which becomes light. God has shown me that water can in fact take three forms. But it is still primarily called water. God has presented himself in three ways, the father in creation the son in redemption and the spirit in his church. These are all part of one God a spirit being. Each different charecteristics of one being,one mind, one consciousness. Just as a man can be a father a son and a brother. Each has different roles and different charecteistics but it doesnt make them three different persons with three different names.
God is as a cloud. The cloud is made up of millions of tiny droplets of water. It can break into smaller clouds or come together and make one large cloud again.
Lucifer remember is a master of subltly. He needs to put idolatry within all religions because this is a major weapon against us obeying God.
The concept presented here doesnt go against the concept of father son and holy spirit but allows a deeper understanding of God as his true person and only person a spirit being.
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by RoyW on
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I do think the movement from Douglas to Jesus as being pre-existent is a significant one. I'm not certain that he is ready to confess that Jesus is God as you do.
Roy
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Permalink Reply by Douglas A Pavone on
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In John 17 12 Jesus spoke to the father and he said while i was with them, i have kept them in your name,those that thou has given me i have guarded and not one has perished but the son of perdition, that the scripture may be fulfilled.
The sheep were given to him by his father.
Jesus said it is not I who do the works but the father who dwells in me he does the works.In 2 Corinthians 5 19 again it says God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself.It finishes in verse 21 and for our sake he made him sin so that in him we might become the rightousness of God.
Again the word Lord can be substituted with YHWY and this makes it more clear.This is how it was looked by those in the beginning of our religion using the right words instead of the substitutions of the world.
Compelling but not as compelling if you look at it with the mindset that Jesus and the father were one and the fathers will worked itself out in our Lord.When even he spoke it was the father speaking through him.John 5 19 the son does nothing on his own, he can do nothing except that which he sees his father doing, because whatever the father does the son also does.The father was the shepherd of old and the shepherd in the new testament in the body of our Lord .The Lord the God of old the ancient of days the spirit being YHWY the father of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ
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Douglas,
What is the purpose of making Christ less than God? Why do you deny Him when He says, "I am the good shepherd?" Yes, He was man conceived in the womb of Mary but He was also God in heaven with the Father before He came. It is impossible to deny that. He was knit together in the womb like other men but unlike other men He was God before this. This Person that walked the earth would never have to ever tell us Who He was. His words gave Him away. For instance:
Mt 23:37-39
37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.' " NIVIs this the Father speaking through Him or is this Him, the Shepherd of Ps 23? You may wish to deny Him and say He is a created being but I will never. His sheep will know Him. Yes, there is the Father, but also the Son and the Spirit. Your war against the Trinity will not succeed. He is the Shepherd of our souls but we must confess that He is Lord. He left His glory but He has been restored to glory. I will never understand how He did this but I do believe He did. Why is it necessary to understand? This is not an intellectual relationship. It is a relationship based on faith. He is Immanuel, God with us. Why do you resist this?
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Kneeling,
Yes, I believe God became a man. As a man, He learned and functioned. God, the Son took on the role of a man to accomplish for man what he could not accomplish for himself. Yes, He was perfect man, the second Adam. He who knew no sin became sin that we might be made the righteousness of God in Christ. What happened at the cross, I do not understand. Obviously, you cannot kill God. His death was the most agonizing death of all. What happened spiritually to Him is still a mystery to me. The words, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?" are very significant. However, I do not know what happened to Him for those three days.
Blessings,
Roy
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Douglas,
In this quote you have we have some agreement:
When even he spoke it was the father speaking through him.John 5 19 the son does nothing on his own, he can do nothing except that which he sees his father doing, because whatever the father does the son also does.
When Jesus left His glory, He became a man. He had to learn like a man. I believe Jesus learned who He was through Scripture and did come to realize that He was the One spoken of in Old Testament Scripture. When did He know completely Who He was? I can't answer that but I do believe by the time He set His face towards Jerusalem the last time He was fully aware that He was both God and man. We are given some insight to His knowledge in the incident at the age of twelve. If necessary, we would be given more but we definitely see by this time He had been told by His parents that He was different from all the other boys. He had been born differently. He said to them and to Joseph, "I must be at my Father's business."
This, of course, is conjecture and not necessary unto faith. I do see Him functioning and learning as any man would have to. I believe He had access to the Scrolls in Nazareth by the rabbi there and was accustomed to reading them as that day He was handed the Scrolls. I think He was a very bright and learned Person. I think He was a good friend of the rabbi and I like to believe that rabbi became a believer. However, none of that is necessary unto faith. It might be interesting discussion.
Jesus spent many long hours in prayer. Does God pray? Why was it necessary for Jesus to spend time praying? It is simply because He left His glory and was functioning as a man. He had to become fully man to accomplish the mission He was given. I have no problems with the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. But, Jesus the man was different. This is the very thing that to me makes Him even more wonderful. He accomplished this mission as a man. However, by the time He said, "I and the Father are One," He had full revelation and knowledge of Who He was. He was the Holy One of Israel.
A disciple,
Roy
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Kneeling,
I don't think it matters much what I think. However, I still have questions. One of them would have to do with the "us" in Scripture when speaking of the One true God. I do see three persons in the Godhead. I think Douglas would answer the "us" as being manipulated. I'm not sure. I do think there is explanation as to why the Trinity is not defined until later in the history of the church. Given enough time, I believe we will all come to the same or similar conclusion.
Roy
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Douglas, this is the next of the posts that you must answer. I think others are joining the conversation. This is good.
The Jews complained that Jesus, a mere man, claimed to be God:
Jn 10:31-33
31 Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?"
33 "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God." NIV
Did Jesus actually claim to be God as the Jews were here accusing Him? We certainly don’t find an occasion anywhere where this seems to be so. Jesus did make certain claims that could only be made by God. On one occasion Jesus had said, "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" (Jn 8:38) No mortal man could make such a claim. He was not speaking representing another. He was speaking of Himself. Again, the Jews picked up stones to stone Him for this blasphemy.
However, His claim of being the Lord of the Old Testament is much more than just this reference. We have just spoken of Jesus claiming to be the Good Shepherd. The Jews were quick to understand the claim. His claim was much more than just fulfilling an appointed role as a representation of God. David had said, “The Lord is my shepherd.” Jesus is saying, “That is I.” Who is the Good Shepherd? It is the Lord.
This claim was not the only objection the learned men of Israel would have been quick to point out. Jesus had also claimed to be the bread of life. The true bread would come down from heaven (Jn 6). Yes, this bread came from God. Jesus is that bread that came down from heaven as the manna fell in the desert. It is here that we have help understanding the purpose of God through the ministry of Jesus. He was God coming down from heaven but man with flesh that would gain forgiveness for man.
It was obvious that Jesus was a man. He bled like a man. He needed nourishment like a man. He became weary like a man. In every respect, this was a man. Yet, the Jews proclaimed that He a man was claiming to be God. Now, let’s assume for just a minute that Jesus was not God. What would Jesus had said in response to such as accusation? He would have quickly denied that He had claimed to be God for this would be blasphemy unless, of course, it was true.
I may discuss the bread of life discourse later but I do want to mention something Jesus said to His disciples in conclusion. He had told them that unless they eat His flesh and drink His blood they could not have life. This was a hard teaching for many and many fell away because of it. Jesus asked His disciples if they also would leave. Jesus asked them, “What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where He was before?” (Jn 6:62) Here He is clearly showing them that He was preexistent. He obviously did not have His beginning at birth. He was before Abraham.
One of the greatest objections the Jews had with His claims was His continual forgiving some for their sins. It was not uncommon for Jesus to tell the recipient of His grace that their sins were forgiven them. The Jews complained of this practice and even the common folks understood this to be more than just a man’s authority. The Jews claimed only God can forgive man his sin. They considered Jesus’ statement that a man’s sins were forgiven him based on Jesus’ authority to be blasphemous.
Jesus claimed to be able to give eternal life. Only the author of life has this kind of power, authority. Only God can give life. A representative could offer life from God but never be able to give it Himself.
In the discourse mentioned in the beginning of this post Jesus fully admits His identity. He admits that He and the Father are one. As a man He became subservient to the Father but as God He was equal with and one with the Father. Paul, the apostle, speaks of this claim when he says concerning Christ:
6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness. Php 2:6-7
The description here is that Jesus, Who was in nature God, did take the role of a servant and became a man. It is because of this latter work that some became confused as to His purpose and person. He, Who was God, became a man that He might accomplish that which man could not do for himself. You and I could never understand this. We must, however, accept it as true. The position of Scripture is that this is the only way for us to gain life. There is no other way. God had to become a man. This might offend you but nevertheless, it is true. It is the position of Scripture and cannot be denied. To deny Him is to not be granted that life which is promised to all who would believe.
Can you be saved and not understand the Trinity? I say that is possible. Can you be saved and deny Who He is. I say that is not possible. Another movie on the Chronicles of Narnia is coming out this month. I was thinking about a quote from the author of those books, C. S. Lewis. It was he that made this now famous quote in Mere Christianity:
“I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: “I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept His claim to be God.” That is the one thing we must not say. A man who said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.”
http://www.allaboutgod.com/jesus-christ.htm
Jesus was not a mere man or created being. He has no beginning or ending. He is eternal. He is our eternal Lord. In this same article from All About God, Josh McDowell is quoted:
"The issue with these three alternatives is not which is possible, for it is obvious that all three are possible. But rather, the question is 'which is more probable?' Who you decide Jesus Christ is must not be an idle intellectual exercise. You cannot put Him on the shelf as a great moral teacher. That is not a valid option. He is either a liar, a lunatic, or Lord and God. You must make a choice. 'But,' as the Apostle John wrote, 'these have been written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and' - more important - 'that believing you might have life in His name' (John 20:31)." (Josh McDowell, More than a Carpenter, Tyndale House Publishers, 1977, pp. 33-34.)
Our sister above wrote:
1 Jn 2:22-23 Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist — he denies the Father and the Son. 23 No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
Douglas, you already quoted a verse I intended to use in this post from Jn 14:
Jn 14:6-7 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." NIV
Who is the way? Jesus is the way. He is the truth. He is the life. A mere man or any created being could never say anything of this sort. I can say as His disciple that I represent Him as the only way to God, the Father, but I could never say, “I am the way.”
Jesus is The Way, He is The Truth, He is The Life. He is also The Lord of the Old Testament. If He is the way, the truth and the life, He can be no less.
God bless you.
Roy
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Kneeling,
Just a few minutes ago you posted this article which I am in full agreement with. Have you changed your mind? Do you now not agree with this article?
http://layevangelism.com/bastxbk/sections/sect-3/sec3-5.htm
I was responding excitedly to your post when the post disappeared. What happened?
Roy
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I guess I would view this last article as just a guy who was upset with his daddy. His article indicates to me that he is lost. He speaks of Herbert Armstrong. His teaching is very similar to his. Teachings like this are very close but always distinct from the truth. I would recommend not following this person. He will lead you down the wrong path, change his mind and come back to the truth, and leave you hanging.
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