All About GOD - Growing Relationships with Jesus and Others
DOES ONE GOD MAKE A TRINITY?
I have been analyzing the concept of the trinity for some time. I went back to the roots of christianity. It seems that this concept was created over time. It was molded over a few hundred years and as time went on it seemed that we were giving in to the world instead of presenting truth.
Jesus said my father is a spirit being and many will be called to worship him in spirit and truth. Jesus said the words i speak i do not spreak on my own authority but the father who dwells in me he does the works. Jesus said, and this is eternal life that they may know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.It says there is one God and father who is above all through all and in you all. It says one God and father who all the heavens and earth is named.But where does it say trinity. The phrase isnt in the bible anywhere. It was a creation of man with the backing of lucifer. It was an attempt and succesfully presented to inject polytheism into christianity just as it has been injected into other religion.
God is as the air within a balloon . The balloon is empty and has no shape or form. Once air is blown into the balloon it has substance and form. It has mass it takes up considerable space compared to its uninflated form.It is now filled with air. You cannot see air nor touch it though we know it exists. Now if we pop the balloon or let the air out the balloon goes back to its origional shape.God an invisible spirit being inhabits that which is not invisible manefesting himself through that which is able to be seen.
God has shown me that he is the light and jesus is the lamp that the light is within. We if uninitiated believe the lamp is in fact the light but as we grow older we realize that the electricity is that which gives light. It the lamp is just the vessel that holds the electricity which becomes light. God has shown me that water can in fact take three forms. But it is still primarily called water. God has presented himself in three ways, the father in creation the son in redemption and the spirit in his church. These are all part of one God a spirit being. Each different charecteristics of one being,one mind, one consciousness. Just as a man can be a father a son and a brother. Each has different roles and different charecteistics but it doesnt make them three different persons with three different names.
God is as a cloud. The cloud is made up of millions of tiny droplets of water. It can break into smaller clouds or come together and make one large cloud again.
Lucifer remember is a master of subltly. He needs to put idolatry within all religions because this is a major weapon against us obeying God.
The concept presented here doesnt go against the concept of father son and holy spirit but allows a deeper understanding of God as his true person and only person a spirit being.
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Barry Renton on
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KneelingB4jesus -
Great answer to the Trinity. Explanation is clear for all to see. The best one I read was
The sun in the sky = Father
The rays from the sun = Son
The warmth from the rays = Holy Spirit
I find it very hard to understand why Christians do not understand the Trinity with out being polythiests.
There is one God - The Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit.
My personal view is the Trinity is one God with different effects on our lives.
The Father is the creator of Heaven whom listens to and answers all our prayers.
The Son is our lord that we must first choose to obey and follow in order to understand and fufil the word of God.
The Holy Spirit which guides us with warmth and keeps us protected in life.
All of these combine into one God, our God and saviour. If we accept life will be easier. Trust me!
Again just my personal opinion which helps me understand it without fail -
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Permalink Reply by Douglas A Pavone on
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Kneelingb4Jesus:
Look at this from a different perspective seek to validate God as one God one spirit one person not the trinity. I look to the hebrews the israelites who saw God in a cloud. They saw God meeting with Moses and called their God an all consuming fire. Moses first saw God as the fire within the burning bush a fire that talked.The israelites saw God as a cloud by day and a fire by night.Each instance was as a spirit being. Each instance was as one God one person one spirit.
Lets then move to the concept of the ten commandments. The only thing written with the finger or hand of God. The creator of the universe wrote this and this alone everything else was inspired by him and had some man in it. But these ten directives were Gods thoughts and written by him and him alone. The first directive was thou shalt have no God besides me. Now besides is a pretty specific word.Besides says there is me and thats it. The translation that has been used over and over is have no gods before me. I use the small g to denote lesser gods. The wording has been deliberately changed to allow for polytheism.Because before says its ok to have other gods as long as you dont put anyone before me.
Remember Judaism was the first religion that was monotheistic which is one God one spirit one person.Secondly we have our God saying have no other God besides me.We have also the definition of who God is from Jesus,he said my father is a spirit being. He said this is eternal life to know you the only true God and Jesus christ whom you have sent.All scripture must agree so when you seek to justify scriptures they must agree with other scripture and the concept of our monotheistic foundation. If they do not then they are not accurate based upon these foundational principles. This is a mindset that emenated from monotheistic Judaism ,not the poluted Christianity through the Romans which is where the concept of the trinity evolved.
In relation to your quote I re read revelations again and i thank you for the study. If you read further in the chapter youll see again that God is refererring to the spirits he sent forth.If you ever read C S Lewis his books explain Angels as pure spirit. His reference to the seven spirits of God are not the holy spirit in the trinity though these were in fact holy spirits. These are the seven angels that he sent forth to the earth to bring his judgement on mankind.Here a symbolism is used to denote the angels as spirits and again in Revelation 4: 5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne which are the seven spirits of God. Fire as in wrath that God sent out into all the earth.Fire the wrath of God within our lord coming forth from him being sent from him.Some say the seven spirits represents the seven gifts of the spirit but this would seem incorrect from the passage from 1 Corinthians 12:4 which reads, there are diversities of gifts but the same spirit.
God has shown himself to me as the father a spirit being and the only true God. He resided within our savior as he is in everything that lives. His spirit is life and this resided in our savior more than anyone who ever was born. He was again created immaculately and born of a woman having God a spirit being as his father.But the spirit within ,even the word of God ,was a part of God the father and a piece of the spirit being that is within all of Gods children.God a spirit being as the only true God within our Lord ,as himself within our church ,and always as the father in consciousness within his being.
2 Corrinthians 5:19 To wit that God,was in Christ,reconciling the world unto himself,not imputing their tresspasses unto them;and hath committed unto us a word of reconciliation.
John 20:17 I ascend to your father and my father ,and my God and your God.
May God richly bless you
Douglas Pavone -
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Permalink Reply by RoyW on
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Kneeling,
Excellent article. It clearly shows the plurality within the Godhead. This reference is revealed to us in the New Testament to be referring to our Lord Jesus:
Plurality within the Godhead - King David writes: "The LORD (YHVH) says to my Lord (Adonai): sit at my right hand until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet (Psalm 110:1), and Psalm 45:6-7 says "Your throne, O God (Elohim), is forever and ever....therefore God, Your God (Elohim), has anointed You with the oil of joy more than Your fellows."
http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Names_of_G-d/Trinity/trinity.html
Yes, Jesus was God yet became a servant to accomplish for us that which we could never do for ourselves. Some of His statements might confuse and allow those who desire to discredit His deity which is usually the purpose of discrediting the Trinity. The only possible way to accomplish our salvation was for Him to become obedient even unto death. As a man He desperately did not want to have to do what was necessary for Him to do. Our redemption, however, wholly depended upon a man doing this for us thus we call Him the second Adam. That does not, however, take away from who He was from all eternity. He is truly our Creator.
Blessed be the Name of our Lord.
Roy -
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Roy and kneelingb4Jesus
Jesus was in fact God the father himself manifested within our savior. God himself reconciling the world to himself as himself.This is the mystery of the oneness.Yes, he was our creator because his spirit being was the father.
Remember there was a huge contravercy within the church over the idea of the trinity. It was not from the beginning as some would say. It evolved over consecutive councils first the concept of Jesus deity was established and then the concept of the deity of the holy spirit to round out the trinitarian concept.
Again this was not new for the world.It was done with the babylonians with nimrod simeramus and tamuz,with the egyptians with osirus isis and horus and with the Hindus with brama vishnu and sheva.It was lucifer using his might to inject polytheism within the church. He this time used the power of the roman empire and the might of the roman catholic church.
For the first time in history a true monotheistic religion had shown itselt and he had to find a way to poison it and he did through the romans and ruling church of the time
.This roman mindset permeates our western world to this day and poisons our ability to see the oneness of God. We can only see the polytheism from their well placed misinformation. -
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Douglas,
Are you saying that they distorted the Bible that we have today? The reason I believe the three are God is simply because that is what we are taught in Scripture. The people who met to attempt to hammer this out were not evil Romans, these were Christians that were attempting to help define Scripture. Their purpose was to avoid false doctrines that were permeating throughout the church.
The doctrine of the Trinity was arrived at by the best Christian minds of the time. If we had a similar conference with the best Christian minds of this day, we would come to the exact same conclusions. God is a Trinity.
Are you a Mormon? What church do you belong to? I am not saying this in an offensive way but you are spreading a false doctrine attempting to make Jesus less that God Himself. When I saw Kneeling on here defending the doctrine all by herself I decided to join her. You said:
Jesus was in fact God the father himself manifested within our savior. God himself reconciling the world to himself as himself.This is the mystery of the oneness.Yes, he was our creator because his spirit being was the father.
Douglas, I consider this a blatant attack upon the Gospel of Jesus Christ. That is my opinion which I am entitled to. When God said, "Let us" in creation, He was not talking to Himself.
You are attempting to make that council evil. You are badly mistaken. I believe that council was inspired by the Holy Spirit. You believe it was inspired by Lucifer. That puts us on opposite ends of this discussion.
I believe you are on here to discredit Jesus and Who He was. I am thankful to Kneeling for challenging your posts. When I saw your dialogue with her, I was surprised. In your post below you say:
Look I am not seeking to destroy your concept of Jesus I am fighting against polytheism in the church.
Douglas, that is exactly what you are attempting to do. You may believe that our doctrine is polytheistic but don't disguise what you are saying. Don't make statements that are completely opposite to your stated purpose.
For instance you continued:
Because the father is the only God.God was in Jesus but he was not Jesus.The word of God was a part of God but not a seperate person.The spirit of God was in fact God not a seperate person.If you make seperate persons you make seperate gods.
That statement is very much against Christian doctrine. The statement does attempt to do just the opposite of your stated purpose. You are attempting to make Jesus less than God.
You are entitled to your beliefs. However, I am absolutely opposed to what you are writing. I believe Scripture clearly portrays Jesus as God.
Roy -
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Yes its interesting that the plural Elohim is used with a singular verb. Stop for a second and look at that. Its a singular verb because its a singular God who is a singular person.Why isnt it a plural noun and a plural verb.
Look I am not seeking to destroy your concept of Jesus I am fighting against polytheism in the church.I believe Jesus was our savior I believe he is seated at the right hand of the father. I believe that all things are created for him and through him. I believe that the fullness of the Godhead rested upon him bodily. But nonetheless his physical being was not God. Jesus and the origional church took great pains to distinguish between God and Jesus. What is there that is above an angel but not God. Because the father is the only God.God was in Jesus but he was not Jesus.The word of God was a part of God but not a seperate person.The spirit of God was in fact God not a seperate person.If you make seperate persons you make seperate gods.
The site you sent me to is another example of the world getting its hands into our religion and it may have a Hebrew flair but it isnt Jewish.
If you look back on the history of the Hebrew language the Jewish people went into dispersion between 135 and 138 ad.At this time they began adopting pagan practices. They began to use the language of those around them.This affected even the view they had for the scriptures. But moreso the scriptures were interpreted differently based on the polllution of these languages Benjamin lee Whorf a famous Hebrew linguist said, Language shapes the way we think and determines what we can think about. Hebrew is also a conceptual language not a finite language. So in the use of Elohim it would not be a finite reference but a conceptual one for the immensity and majesty of God . Again Elohim which has a plural meaning was used to show Gods immensity and majesty not to justify the trinity ,why? because all of the five books of Moses taught this same one God one person concept no matter how those worldly influenced trinitatians seek to deny this.It is also quite probably that the pagan influences infected the transcription of the text and it was changed from the singular el or elohei or eloha to elohim.As there are a few different ancient texts and they differ in their translation.
Finally Judaism is a true monotheistic religion not as this pseudo Jewish site would have you believe. The name of the site is hebrew for christians, the name should be changed to hebrew for trinitarinan christians.Because all christians are not trinitarians. -
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Kneeling,
The teaching of the Trinity did not begin at the Council of Nicaea or at the Council of Constantinople. It was being argued by the early church fathers long before this. And since the King James Bible was not around at that time it has absolutely nothing to do with that doctrine. The first person to actually mention the Trinity was, of course, our Lord. He commanded the disciples to baptize in the name of using the formula Father, Son and the Holy Spirit. I do not know why He did not expand on this at the time or at other times but He certainly did end any discussion that some might conceive that there was no Trinity. What does He mean "in the name of"? I baptize in the name of the Father, in the name of the Son, and in the name of the Holy Spirit. Since there is one God, the Three are One. They are perfectly united, and have a perfect unity of purpose.
All Three have a name. For the Son, you could use the name Jesus but He is the Son never-the-less and here we see they are all three equal. Can you imagine what the Pharisees would have had to say about this comment if they have been privy to this?
The reason for the first counsel was, of course, to dispel certain doctrines of heresy that were beginning to develop in the church. There was not an evil scheme by these fathers to teach heresy. Their purpose was to rid the church of heresy. This was not a Roman plot to integrate Roman philosophy in the doctrine of the church. That idea would have been met with furious objection.
The doctrine of the Trinity is well-established in Scripture from Genesis one to Revelation. It is most of the time impossible or nearly impossible to distinguish since they are so united. When God said, "Let us make man," who was speaking? Was that the Father, the Son, or the Spirit? It makes no difference. What matters is that they were all there. The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are three persons yet one God. And they all have names.
Douglas is teaching a form of modalism or actually could be that doctrine itself. This statement he makes gives that away:
Jesus was in fact God the father himself manifested within our savior. God himself reconciling the world to himself as himself.This is the mystery of the oneness.Yes, he was our creator because his spirit being was the father.
This teaching was condemned by the early church as heretical. It's purpose is to discredit the Lord Jesus Himself from being God. It is not "oneness" as you mention as that is a different view than what we are speaking about. Those who are oneness will never dispute that Jesus is God.
There was some confusion in the second century churches over this issue. However, the heretical teachings that began to surface denying the deity of Jesus forced the early church to meet to begin to establish church doctrine that was considered the rule of faith by the early church fathers.
However, it is Jesus Himself that establishes the doctrine of the Trinity by referring to Himself as God and the Spirit as a person and then finally giving us the great commission.
I am confident that the early followers of Christ were going around baptizing in the name of the Father, the Son and the Spirit and would explain very early on the doctrine of the Trinity much as we have it today.
Roy -
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Kneeling,
I have posted on here that I do not think you have to have this nailed down to be saved. The church went for quite sometime without truly understanding the role of the Spirit. Paul's primary study and message was that Christ came to save us from the condemnation of the Law. His was a glorious message but leaves some things for us to yet figure out. For instance: he refers to eschatology but doesn't really develop it and many come to differing conclusions concerning that.
However, it was Jesus that gives us the picture of the Spirit as a person. Notice this passage:
Jn. 15:26-27
26 "When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me. 27 And you also must testify, for you have been with me from the beginning. NIV
I would agree from this passage alone that one might describe the Holy Spirit as an outward working of God the Father. However, Jesus did not stop here. He went on to say:
Jn 16:5-16
5 "Now I am going to him who sent me, yet none of you asks me, 'Where are you going?' 6 Because I have said these things, you are filled with grief. 7 But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8 When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; 10 in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11 and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.
12 "I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.
16 "In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me." NIV
Who or what is coming? Jesus is identifying a personal being. Is this just another representation of Himself? In Is 9:6 Jesus is called both the Counselor and the Father:
Isa 9:6
6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. NIV
As God Jesus is the Father, Son and Spirit (Counselor). They are so closely united, it is difficult to separate them into three persons. I personally don't have a problem with those like the oneness people you mentioned above. Neither do I have a problem with your position. No one is going to burn you at a stake. However, I do have a serious problem with Douglas's position which I consider to be an anti-Christ position. He presents Jesus as a person less than eternal God.
I believe the Council hammered out a very important doctrine that is in Scripture. I see, from the description of Jesus, the Holy Spirit as a person. He confirms that to me with His commission to baptize int the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. All three names are important and I am sure that this is how you were baptized. Elohim to me is not two but three persons.
The descriptions you have given above can also be referred to as each member of the Godhead. Jesus is a gift and you can drink, eat, taste, be filled, etc. of Him as well.
I see all three right there in Creation. The only One distinguishable in chapter one is the Spirit. He was protecting the earth from the serious gravitational pull that it would have been experiencing during the stretching of the universe. Science has discovered a brand new entity in our universe that they cannot explain. For lack of a better word they call it dark matter. They don't know what it is but they do know that whatever it is it is much more powerful than gravity. I believe the power they are trying to figure out scientifically is the Holy Spirit. In the end they will know Him. I know this is getting way off the subject but it was He that protected the earth from being ripped apart by the serious gravitational pull that would have been taking place during that first week. The earth was the first part of the heavens that God created. The Holy Spirit hovered over it like a chicken hovers over her eggs. Yes, gravity is the most powerful known force we know of yet as scientists will agree there is something out there that is even more powerful than gravity. When will our modern day scientists bow their knees to this power? I pray before it is too late for them.
I love God. I praise Him and I don't demand that you believe exactly as I. I could clearly see in your posts that you believed in Jesus as God your Savior. That makes you my sister. Blessings to you.
Roy
The key to salvation is faith in Jesus Christ, God our Savior. That is necessary unto salvation. -
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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on
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Douglas,
You certainly got your doctrine down pack. In very few occasions I express what I am about to express now, because like you friend I love to discuss doctrinal issues and though I can come back and debunk your statements up above and then you can rebottle mines, I am not being led by the Spirit to do that with you.
I am being led to tell you the following:
God loves you, He send His only begotten to save you and if you pick up the word and leave all manmade interpretations aside and asked Him to reveal this matter to you -HE WILL!
Ask God to teach you bro. Sometimes the problem with smart folks is over analyzing issues and depending on research to build their doctrinal stance. What we believe about God should not be grounded on research (I have nothing against research, not one thing at all), but on a one on one teacher (the Holy Spirit) and student (you) interaction. I do not know you, I don't know how much time you have invested studying this topic between you and God.
I can tell you this much I went before the Lord a long time ago, 16 years ago and I asked Him to reveal this issue to me without one outside source, just the Holy Spirit and me and this is what I saw:
I saw Jesus’ splendor as being God and the Holy Spirit being God as well throughout the bible and had no choice but to believe that God is three persons in one. That is what you have to do. You have to set aside all you think you know and read the word and asked God to do what He says He will do. That is to lead you to all truth.
I Listened to God - I hope you do to as you dive into scripture asking Him to reveal this truth to you.
Do you believe in Sola Scriptura in the sufficiency of Scripture to be are authority for doctrine?
With much love and respect your brother in Christ -
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David,
Yes i believe in the scriptures only.It is interesting to have discussions about theology and it is true that there is enough in the bible to justify either side of this debate. This discussion has been enlightening to me and it has opened my mind to new ideas.I hope my responses have done the same.
I know that God is beyond our understanding and i know that i can study about him my entire life and never truly understand who he is.It occurred to me the other day.Our lord and savior said you will know them by how they love.I thought to myself if i am a true deciple of our Lord then i need to do this here as well.
I will pray and ask God to reveal himself to me and i pray that he will make it clear who he is.God reveals himself to us each in his own way. His body is emense and it encompases many different views.But each is part of his flesh. Each is part of his grand plan and his ministry that has to reach throughout the world.I may not agree with each and every one but i know that more now than ever before we need to have a united front. We need to find things that we agree on and focus on them. We have a hostile world that is growing more and more estanged with God by the day.
God has shown me that every piece of his body is important.That i am not to judge another for their understanding if it dosnt agree with mine.To deal with each as a brother in Christ.To show love even in debating over issues that we hold near and dear to our hearts.
I had an experience I will never forget.I was driving in a van and i was talking on the phone with a person that God didnt want me to associate with. I was in a diffecult place in my life. I had come to a turning point and God knew it. Jesus said no man comes to me unless he is sent to me by the father. All of a sudden i felt this sense of warmth deep within me. I felt accepted as if rivers of love were washing over me, i felt forgiven and i felt at peace. I started to sob and sob and i felt as if deep scars within my soul were being healed. I had been wearing sunglasses and they were covered with tears. I cried out Jesus im not worthy Jesus im not worthy.My life was never the same after that.That was almost ten years ago.Since then i have been to almost 15 different denominations and have found something good within them all.Do you know there are over 100 different denominations of Baptists alone shocking.
I have explored other parts of his body and i found love there and a desire to understand.But each view i weighed against scripture alone. I have been searching for the way the origional Christians obeyed God.I refuse to follow something that is not according to scripture and not in accord with how the origional Christians did things.Our religion has been changed and modified and worldly interpreted and most times at the tip of the sword.
We need to pray for one another to truly understand what our God wants for each of us.I know that he has saved me from homelessness and addiction and he wants me to share that message with others.But we need to pray for each other because we need this strength in this God hating world.
In relation to scripture and doctrine i will continue to ask God to show me the truth weither i agree with it or not.I pray that you will too.
May our God pour down his love upon you and remind you how special you are in his eyes.
P.S. Roy i had a rebuttal for you last week and i spent two hours writing it,it was great. But im sure that since i lost it in cyberstace that it was not what God wanted at the time.May God bless you and your family.
Kneeling, God is good isnt he and he never is wrong.Just waiting on God to respond to your post i havent forgotten about you.May God bless you and keep you in his love. -
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Douglas,
I wish you could find that as I just do not see how any serious student of the Bible could place Jesus as anything less than our eternal God our Savior. I can understand saying the Spirit and would not spend a great deal of argument on that one other than I do see Him as a person as well.
Whether or not a person has to come to believe in Jesus as God to be saved is another issue. As I have said before I do not think one has to have their theology just absolutely correct to be saved from their sins. However, eventually, I believe all His children will bow to Him as their Lord and their God.
May God bless you and your family as well. I pray that you will understand my position that I believe your position on Jesus is a dangerous one. -
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Douglas,
>>The concept of the trinity has been around for longer than two thousand years. It was around with the Egytians in their trinity of Osirus,Isis and Horus.
Check this discussion out: http://www.allaboutgod.net/group/allaboutgodnet/forum/topics/the-ne... -
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