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Does it sometimes take a deliverance in order to surrender to the Cross?
There seems to be two schools of thought. One school says we each have a free will and can choose to turn to God or not by true repentence and coming to the Cross of Jesus. The other school of thought held by deliverance ministers is that some people are unable to freely choose due to demon oppression/possession that has them bound. I'm sure there are people out there who have been into every conceivable type of sin and have encountered demonic strongholds. My question to you is, did you need a deliverance before you were free to turn to Christ? Or would you say that it was strictly a matter of your will?
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on
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Jane,
Since you mentioned two school of thought by defining one as the deliverance ministers do, I will not in this initial post get into the teachings of the deliverance ministry for now, but will throw into the discussion the following:
There are two main theological schools of thought (camps if you will) one that believes we choose God and the other that believes God chooses us for salvation.
There are verses that say that if you believe and repent you will be saved and there are verses that say that no one can come to Jesus unless the father draws one to Jesus. Now we know the bible does not contradict itself, so both interpretations cannot be right. Either God chooses us or we chose God.
For details of those two schools of thought check this discussion out: http://www.allaboutgod.net/forum/topics/what-is-arminianism-and-1?i...
Now - I brought the topic up because if God is the one choosing who He will save, then the other two options become obsolete.
Blessings
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Permalink Reply by Jane Smith on
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I have already long since studied this subject and I have no doubt that we choose God with the free will He has given us for God did not create puppets- he created free agents. Scripture may seem to say something it does not say. That's why it is essential to be baptized in the Holy Spirit in order to discern what the scriptures teach. I attended a Presbyterian, Calvinist church at one point as God lead me there to reveal to me what Calvinism is and why it is so wrong. The people there had no joy in a true salvation- spoke endlessly about worldly, materialistic, carnal things. Of course many of those in non-Calvinistic churches who have been saved and baptized in the Holy Spirit also act carnal. but that is because if they do not continue in the Word, they will lose the joy and discernment they have been given.
My original question is what it is so no need to get off on a tangent. I know I can speak for myself that before I knew Christ, I lightly dabbled in sin unknown to me at the time- I thought it was just the harmless, cool behaviors and fads of the day. And when I was in this period of my life, since I unknowingly opened the door to sin in minor ways, demons whispered to me that wrong was right and right was wrong. When they would speak, I felt a scary, evil presence and wondered who the voices were. If I so lightly dabbled in sin and heard the whisperings and push from demons, then I would imagine those who are in far more grievous sin would know what I mean when I ask if they needed a deliverance before they could turn to Christ, or was it simply a matter of their will. Put another way, does one with extreme issues need to get delivered first in order to accept Christ, or can such a person come to Christ and then Christ will deliver him? This is what I want to know.
I have looked into deliverance ministry and found a number of false practices. Other deliverance ministries I have researched are more balanced. I am still looking as I am not convinced yet. I encounter many people as I witness who tell me they are unable to surrender. I am in a learning process to know how to witness to them. I need to know if they are not being honest when they say they are too bound up to surrender due to demonic oppression/possession or if they are actuality free to surrender. Either deliverance ministry has validity or it doesn't. Want to hear opinions/testimonies.
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Permalink Reply by Carla on
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Hi Jane,
I don't know anything about deliverance ministries.. But I do have my testimony i can share with you.
God delivered me from anxiety and fear...it was at that moment in time that I realized I am a sinner in need of a Savior, and that I sinned against a Holy God who is the only True God. I repented and in that same moment I knew that I was loved and forgiven, and no longer in bondage to anxiety..I had been set free. I did not experience any feelings of condemnation..Only a Supreme Love and a physical sensation of being embraced and lifted (carried)..almost like I was floating..but my feet were touching the ground.
I can't give you the sequence of how it happened, because I believe it all happened at the same time.
Another thought, The first thing for me was I had a strong desire to know if God is real...and if HE was real, my heart was open to knowing Him. God showed me my sin, and I then had the desire to repent and turn to Him. God had been preparing me for a long time to get to that point. When I was ready, God was right there to embrace me and set me free, forgive me and offer to me His Grace, Love and Forgiveness. I knew in that moment, it did not matter what I had done. I was forgiven and loved.
I don't know if I have answered your question..but perhaps it may help in some way.
Blessings, Carla
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Hello Jane,
I am glad to hear that you have settled in your heart what you believe. I however believe God is the one that called me and gave me faith to believe and then I freely chose Hm, but I really have no humongous issues with the way you believe and respect your opinion. In these discussions you will get different opinions and it is always up to us to align everything to scripture.
Because I align closer to Reformed Theology/Calvinism I believe salvation to be completely from beginning to end a work of God. With real responsibilities in our part to live in holiness. But I will respect your desire not to go in to tangents :) which I am extremely good at. I will only say that one experience in a Presbyterian church does not speak for every other Reformed church, but you know that.
This has been my experience in ministry and I believe it to be biblically sound. I called people to Repent and believe in Christ, if as I am doing that I discern through the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit that a person is demon posses I then act according to the guidance of the Holy Spirit. See the problem I have with people making a formula or giving 10 ways to do this and that is that we see our Lord healing people in multiple ways, saving them in multiple ways and casting out demons in multiple ways. So a rule that applies every time is unrealistic. Yes I know this does not give you the answer to your question, does a person need to be deliver first so they can freely choose, well I do not believe the answer to that question is goanna be one of a yes or a no answer, which works for every individual case.
My experience has been that the ministers of the Lord, His servants have to abide in Him in such a personal way that we know how to respond in each individual situation. Having said that God has guided me to ask some, do you want to be free from the fallen angel or angels in you? At times the person has told me themselves that they want to be free from the demonic and yet others have told me to get away and blaspheme the Lord's name.
So does a demon posse’s person who is so bound by the demon(s) need to be deliver first from the demon, before they can freely believe? In some cases this may be true, in others one may have to act differently, according to the guidance of the Holy Spirit. I do not box God in such matters and do not depend on a manmade formula, but try to be in good relationship with my Lord, so when such situations arise I am guided by the Holy Spirit to act according to God's will in that particular circumstance.
Blessings sis and hope that helps.
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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on
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Jane,
Food for thought:
If one believes we are freewill beings and can freely choose Christ, and if one believes Christ will not force us to acept Him, do we then believe that a demon can take away that freewill and block the call the call of Christ so effectively that one cannot be saved because of the work of a demon, even if one were possessed prior to salvation? Shall we regard the work of an omnipotent God as stronger than the work of a created being that has fallen? If Jesus is calling a person will He not quiet the demon as He did while on earth?
In salvation we are freed from the power of sin and death. This freedom occurs in us through salvation (the complete work fo Jesus) at the point of salvation, not before. This freedom inculdes freedom from the power of the enemy over us.
Lord Bless,
LT
TheNET Coordinator
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My thanks to all who replied, because although you each come from a different experience, God spoke to me from the sum of your experiences. My salvation experience was like Carla's in that I wanted to know truth and came to Christ easily when the time was right. Did not have to be delivered from satanic strongholds as had never gone far enough into sin to need it.
As for David, I guess you could say I believe in Jesus-ism lol. I do not align myself with any Christian denomination and certainly not with any cult, although it is my opinion that every denomination is cultish theses days as the Church has strayed so far from the pattern that Jesus established for us to live by in new Testament times. But that is another subject for another day- a very crucial one I might say. Although I rarelky go to a doctor, when I fill out the form that asks for religion I write FOLLOWER OF JESUS! That makes eyes roll and I get out of the doctors office super fast lol. Good insight re the rest of your post. It jogged my spiritual memory as to what true ministry is. It always comes back to the Holy Spirit. We must have complete dependence on Him and in so doing, we will discern what each person is about and needs as we minister. I have had to teach myself what true ministry is, because i did not learn it in any of the churches i experienced. I currently serve the Lord in a very interesting ministry which is similar to street witnessing. He is giving me OJT. What you share in your post confirms what the HS has been showing me He is the Great Teacher and he uses believers to remind each other what we already know or need to see in new ways. TY.
And LT, you also said what I believe, too. Satan is a peon compared to our Great God! Can Satan stop a person from accepting Christ? Of course not!! But here's what I saw after reading the posts yesterday and through other things i encountered in my day-- I remembered the account of the demoniac in the Bible. Something happened to this man that caused him to be demon possessed. He came to Jesus, but not until Jesus delivered him and he was free to choose. What I am getting from all I have counseled with and the live-in program ppl I have spoken with is that ppl are in various states of sin and its destructiveness. So, the answer I have received is while some ppl live very miserable lives of sin, they have not lost their person hood to the extent that they need a deliverance to come to Christ. But there are others who must be delivered first, because they are truly possessed from one degree to another. Sometimes this occurs due to severe abuse that has happened to them in their childhood and other times it may happen to them later in life. But one way or another, Satan has permeated their lives to the point that they can't just turn to God without a deliverance first. This is my conclusion here and so the question becomes one of knowing how to listen to the HS to understand if a person is truly possessed or just deluded/lying/stalling. There are different approaches for each scenario. God through His HS is teaching me how to be more discerning as I seek to differentiate what each person's true issues are and the approach to take. It is a beautiful thing the way God provides knowledge to those who ask of Him in order to serve His purposes.
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Hello sis,
>>I do not align myself with any Christian denomination and certainly not with any cult, although it is my opinion that every denomination is cultish these days as the Church has strayed so far from the pattern that Jesus established for us to live by in New Testament times.
When I first read your statement I really wanted to respond, but thought I would wait and then forgot about it, but as the thread has resurface I find it impossible to ignore it haha
Hey sis many thousands, millions enjoy healthy fellowship throughout the nation and the world. There are Churches that serve the community and teach sound doctrine. No church is perfect, but there remains many healthy churches where we can enjoy the beauty and diversity of the body of Christ. We mature through the challenges we encounter through fellowship.
I am saddened by those who do not align themselves with a fellowship when it is such a joy to fellowship. I love and nothing compares to worshiping the Lord in the privacy of my home, but corporate worship has its own beauty. To edify and be edified by God's people is a privilege. Yes, there are challenges, anytime we exchange and open up to people there is the possibility of being hurt, but we mature and most things just bounce off after a while. We learn to do what we do for the Lord and expect nothing from anyone. If they thank you great, what a blessing, if they turn around and bite you, you say Godless you and go on loving, because that is what we do.
>>although it is my opinion that every denomination is cultish these days as the Church has strayed so far from the pattern that Jesus established for us to live by in new Testament times
I do not know what has happened in your life for you to feel that way, but that is not true of many churches. There remains healthy servants of the Lord willing to give their lives for Christ and the sheep. We highly encourage people to become part of a local church and I encourage you as well to take these matters before the Lord. I will not go as far as stating that I am sure God is not please with your views because He may be doing something else in you through your own choices and walk, but the many admonitions and commands not to forsake the fellowship remain true for each one of us. It is true that we are living in difficult times, a lot of false teachers and doctrines, but we keep loving and helping to edify the Church.
In Christ's love.
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Permalink Reply by Gayla on
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This is a question that I carried in my heart for a long time, and I now believe that there are certain individuals, that must be freed from Satans grip, before they are able to receive Christ as Savior. I do believe that they are few and far between however.
And on the other subject, pertaining to whether God chooses us or we choose God, I have thought extensively on that one also, and believe the word when it says that unless Christ draws us, hru the power of the Holy Spirit, we cannot come to him.
However to clarify that more, I think that Christ is drawing us, if we have any interest in things of a spiritual nature whatsoever.
We do not see the work of the spirit... except that a person comes to Christ....and it seems real simple really that Christ is doing the drawing....first. The person only responds...he has the free will to choose or not to choose....
I know in my own life, that there were many years, when I lived strictly for self.... while other Christians were praying for me.... during those years.... I had no interest in the things of God.... until...he drew me by the power of his Spirit....and when he did, he started pulling the rug out from under me, so to speak, so that when I accepted, it would be with my whole heart...which I did... in June of 1985 and I have never looked back since.... because I know that there is nothing left in that old life for me.... my new life is all about Christ and his Kingdom.
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Here is a very interesting testimony, and a site on deliverance, I just found it, and thought it might be helpful to this discussion. Here is the link:
http://fcsweb.org/testimony.html
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Hi Gayla,
TY for your posts in this thread. In your original post you are making the same point I made. Whether through a person searching for God or the prayers of others for a wayward individual etc, I believe our loving and merciful God gives each many chances to turn to Him. Once one is saved, he/she can look back on the path that lead to their salvation and see all the times that a person or a situation witnessed to them. Like the Word says, there are those who plant seeds, those who water and those who harvest souls into the Kingdom. That's why everyone once saved has a unique testimony. God woos us to Him, but He does not force us to choose Him. We were created with free will. The Bible states that there are many more who will reject Him then those who will accept His free gift of salvation.
As for your 2nd post, I contacted the deliverance ministry and spoke with an individual that definitely has been able to give me the right answers to the questions I asked. I have spoken to at least a dozen ppl in the last couple of weeks in various live-in programs and none were as spiritual/knowledgeable as the Individual I spoke with at the deliverance ministry. This is a ministry that does not even charge for their help and sticks with the person in need of counseling or deliverance until he is set free. This is what I was hoping to find. So, ty for allowing God to work through you to send me in this direction. Like I said, I have spoken with many ppl in recent days, but this is the first one who had what I was looking for. It just takes one person like you, Gayla, to be obedient to the Lord to bring a word of knowledge to one like me seeking His direction to minister to a captive. I believe I am about to go to a whole new level in understanding how to minister to the lost. Will let you know how things turn out.
Jane
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Permalink Reply by RoyW on
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Jane,
Others of us will be interested as well. This is an area I do not have much understanding. I will look forward to you sharing your discoveries. The reason I post here is only that I will be notified of a new post.
Roy
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Roy,
It has been my experience that not many believers are strong in this area, yet shouldn't every believer be discipled to be mature and fully able to stand against the wiles of the enemy for ones own protection and to set the captive free?! There are a number of reasons why believers don't attain to maturity. I am just as stunted as everyone else, but the Lord has been honoring my quest to go higher. He has given me a ministry and a crash course, so to speak, on what true ministry is and how to stand against the strongholds in others that I may encounter.I believe when the Lord is ready for a believer to minister on a deeper level for which He has prepared him/her to enter, He will be there with the knowledge and wisdom they need and connect them to those who are mature and can further disciple them. So, I will be glad to share what I am learning and any sincere seeker who wants to grow in this respect is welcome to contact me personally.
Jane
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