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Are We Dispensationalists or covenant believers?
For those that are interested in an in depth discussion about dispensationalism and the couple other options out there, jump on in. I know Roy wanted to discuss it; I am just leaving it out in the open for others that want to join in and help us work this through.
For those that haven’t looked into this subject let me say it is a big subject. It deals with the overall theological grid we interpret scripture from. It is basically a system of hermeneutics (the system that helps us interpret scripture). I know of 3 main choices on the market and maybe 4.
1. Dispensationalism
2. Covenant theology
3. Progressive dispensationalism
4. (maybe) preterism- also called "realized eschatology" (not sure if this is in the same category, but as I read a bit on this it has a hermeneutic all to itself as does dispensationalism, so I think it is one of the "big systems" on the market for interpreting the old and new testament writings)
Dispensationalism is the system that has given rise to such doctrines as a 7 year tribulation, rebuilt temple, pre-trib (and any-trib) rapture. These I think are accepted by most people in my beloved Pentecostal family.Dispensationalism confused me because using dispensationalism hermeneutics, if done honestly and consistently, leads to some things that are clearly not normative. For example, if we hold to normative dispensationalism we must believe that the kingdom of God has not come in any form, even partially, at this point in history. We must believe that the new covenant has not begun and wont until the millennium in which it will be exclusively for Jews according to the flesh. Now I can’t imagine anyone saying the kingdom didn’t come at least in part with Jesus first coming and that the new covenant is not for the church, or even for this age!!!
Here I just want to start the ball rolling and from there we can jump into the details as they come up. I need your help; I am no expert in the subject. I expect new tangents to come up. Hope others will throw in their ideas on this, but if not I hope at least our discussion won’t be a nuisance. It will get a bit technical and so might bore many, feel free to ignore our posts on the subject!
Anyone out there interested here are some questions to jump-start things. Answer some of these questions from your perspective. You don’t have to do all of them, just pick one you think is important to you. Or just ask a new one and answer it!! Anything will do!!!
1. Why do you think this is an important subject? What issues are at stake when dealing with dispensationalism or other systems on the market?
2. Do we have to have a system, or can we "just stick with the bible”?
3. Can we just pick and choose from different systems and still be consistent?
4. Do you think dispensationalists or covenant theology is right? :)
Views: 513
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on
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My brother Wicus,
>>Apparently lost to God.
I hope I do not offend you in any way with the following:
I know your statement above in bold is not meant to be funny, but it cracked me up cause (yes cause I am a bit goofy) it reminded me of my first experience with terms such as Dispensationalist Hermeneutics or Covenant Theology hermeneutics. I was like, how you eat that animal? hahaha
I cannot improve on what bother Roy has said. He is right on. W are not saved by how much theology we know. We are saved because of who we know. We know Jesus, the Father and the Holy Spirit because we were called and chosen hallelujah!!! We believed and repented, praise God.
>>if I look at this all I'm a non believer
One question why would looking at this stuff make you a non believer?
>>I'm not a CT or a DT or whatever T there may be
Most pastors, elders have a "philosophy" of how to interpret the bible, i.e. hermeneutics. Pastors and teachers will hardly ever mention this topic, but they certainly fall into one of them. It is important to be aware of them, at least in the most basic forms to gauge if what we are being taught actually aligns correctly with scripture. The systems we are discussing here are the main systems I am aware of. Each of them "sticks to the bible" but their presuppositions as to what rules to use to interpret it lead them to radically different conclusions. It is our God given task to rightly divide the word of truth. It is good to know how to study the bible, which rules we use for reading it. We often ask why there are so many different denominations and interpretations of a passage. One of the main reasons is because the majority of the family finds topics that deal with how we interpret the bible correctly unnecessary. Not so much this particular topic here which most of the participants find not to be on the top of their list to study. The systems whether we realize it or not describe the methods people who claim, we stick to the bible only, actually use. The teachers, theologians and scholars the Lord has blessed us with simply place those methods in systems that we can actually understand.
Blessings dude.
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KneelingB4Jesus
You are so cool, so cool.
Much love to you my sis. I am with you and agree.
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Permalink Reply by RoyW on
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Kneeling,
Are you saying by this that you believe the church is comprised of both Jews and Gentiles but that in Christ they are all one, now?
As for the rapture, we all believe in the rapture. I am still mulling over the Kingdom Age idea. It does appear to me that God has made some promises to the physical nation of Israel.
Kneeling, to you who fulfills this prophecy?
Ge 13:16-17
16 I will make your offspring like the dust of the earth, so that if anyone could count the dust, then your offspring could be counted. NIV
How do you think God will fulfill His promise to Abraham? Are we the fulfillment or is there another plan to fulfill that promise. We certainly number into the millions, but the dust of the earth, sand of the sea or what about the stars in the sky. It was not until recent time that we have really understood the concept of the stars of the sky. There number is so high - far outnumbering the dust of the earth of sand of the sea. The number cannot be comprehended. What does God have planned after the millennium?
Are we in the millennial age? All this has my mind going. Have the promises to the physical descendants of Israel already been fulfilled and what are His plans for this nation that has returned? So much more to be discussed - we will never be finished with it.
Roy
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How do you feel about the Messianic Jews that feel the necessity of incorporating Jewish laws and customs as a necessary part of their worship. I am noticing that many Gentile believers are feeling the importance of including these observances in the church. How do you feel about these things?
I see some of that in remnant theology. I am convinced that if Paul came to my house and I served ham and beans (one of my favorites) he would gladly join me for supper. What do you think?
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I agree that we are not to celebrate or observe Jewish holidays or customs. However, I would be negligent to say that I was in agreement with everything here but that is another issue. There is a group of people here in our town that have become very involved in Jewish law and customs. They have isolated themselves from the rest of the body. I know some of them and wish I could help them out of that bondage but I will just have to let our Lord take care of that. He's got a whole lot of work to do on me as well.
Roy
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Kneeling,
I have only done it once. It was very humbling and difficult. I imagine that is why it is not practiced.
Roy
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KneelingB4Jesus
That is pretty cool sis.
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hahaaha Roy you are nutts, but I love you brother. You are so cool.
Ham and beans yummy. :) and yes Paul and Peter be like, can i have seconds ahahahah
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A Jewish teacher in a very famous Evangelical church once debated with me over that issue for an hour until we finally agreed to disagree. I wasn't sharp enough to convince him that God was not expecting any part of the church to observe that part of Scripture. I was telling him that what God expected of him, he expected of me. We were equal in the church and in God's eyes. He didn't feel that way. He felt that since he was a physical descendant of Abraham, he had a special place. I think I kind of see that in this remnant theology.
All:
What do you think of these verses. How do we interpret Galatians 4 in light of Remnant Theology?
Gal 4:12-13
12 I plead with you, brothers, become like me, for I became like you. You have done me no wrong. NIV
I see Paul saying to his Gentile believing friends that he had become like them. In other words, he only continued to observe certain customs and Jewish law for the benefit of his Jewish friends but not as an act to satisfy God's commands upon him. There were Jews infiltrating into the ranks of the church attempting to bring the church under the Law. Paul said concerning them:
Gal 4:17-20
17 Those people are zealous to win you over, but for no good. What they want is to alienate you [from us], so that you may be zealous for them. 18 It is fine to be zealous, provided the purpose is good, and to be so always and not just when I am with you. 19 My dear children, for whom I am again in the pains of childbirth until Christ is formed in you, 20 how I wish I could be with you now and change my tone, because I am perplexed about you! NIV
Their purpose was to win over the Gentile believers to the Jewish Law thus alienating them from Paul who had long ago laid that aside for a better covenant.
Next:
Gal 4:21-23
21 Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. 23 His son by the slave woman was born in the ordinary way; but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a promise. NIV
Those who are born under this new covenant (new birth) are completely free from the old. There are two Jerusalems - one on earth and the other that is in heaven. The one here symbolizes the old while the one in heaven symbolizes the new. "Which one to you want to be a member of?" I asked this brother.
I see Remnant Theology as an attempt to make the church an extension of the old - but perhaps rebuilt just a little. I see people on this site attempting the same. However, I see the New replacing the Old and therefore I think some would put me into the Replacement Theology category. Tell me, Pastor David, where do you see me based upon the things I have said. I don't see you in the remnant theology camp. Am I mistaken?
I think it is time to resurrect this forum and get it going again. I think we have beaten the once saved vehicle pretty good. Since we obviously (according to the fig tree analogy) are in the last days, should we not continue to discuss dispensationalism? Are you the one that started this forum? It has so much to say about the end times, the church, Israel, the rapture and on and on. I think it was LT that got me going on this again.
Roy
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Kneeling,
I don't think this gentleman is a pure remnant theology man. I will get back to you on it. He talks remnant theology but preaches replacement theology. He is teaching that the old completely replaces the new. He is speaking against dispensationalism that attempts to say that Israel will be reborn. However, he is not speaking against replacement theology which is more in line with covenant theology. I see him blending the two. Where am I missing it? Who knows, maybe I am a remnant theology person as well. I do see the remnant as those who would become a part of the new. They are our fathers, our foundation with Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone. However, in order to be a part of the new they had to leave the old which was at the time vanishing and in the next few generations as can be seen by the teachings of Origen, Augustine and others was completely gone.
Roy
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Kneeling,
Are you in agreement with this organization called the Apostolic Olive Tree that you posted here above? They have some strange ideas it seems to me.
I found this quote on the site:
It is especially true concerning the many Pastors, Ministers, and Organizations that have been influenced by a damnable heresy known as ‘Dispensational Teaching.’ Dispensationalism, a system of prophetic interpretation, gives some very twisted and perverted interpretations of Romans 11. http://www.apostolicolivetree.com/olive_tree_theology.html
I personally would have problems with this statement since I am somewhat dispensational myself, even though I am willing to learn additional information. I plan to read more on the site.
Roy
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