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Are We Dispensationalists or covenant believers?
For those that are interested in an in depth discussion about dispensationalism and the couple other options out there, jump on in. I know Roy wanted to discuss it; I am just leaving it out in the open for others that want to join in and help us work this through.
For those that haven’t looked into this subject let me say it is a big subject. It deals with the overall theological grid we interpret scripture from. It is basically a system of hermeneutics (the system that helps us interpret scripture). I know of 3 main choices on the market and maybe 4.
1. Dispensationalism
2. Covenant theology
3. Progressive dispensationalism
4. (maybe) preterism- also called "realized eschatology" (not sure if this is in the same category, but as I read a bit on this it has a hermeneutic all to itself as does dispensationalism, so I think it is one of the "big systems" on the market for interpreting the old and new testament writings)
Dispensationalism is the system that has given rise to such doctrines as a 7 year tribulation, rebuilt temple, pre-trib (and any-trib) rapture. These I think are accepted by most people in my beloved Pentecostal family.Dispensationalism confused me because using dispensationalism hermeneutics, if done honestly and consistently, leads to some things that are clearly not normative. For example, if we hold to normative dispensationalism we must believe that the kingdom of God has not come in any form, even partially, at this point in history. We must believe that the new covenant has not begun and wont until the millennium in which it will be exclusively for Jews according to the flesh. Now I can’t imagine anyone saying the kingdom didn’t come at least in part with Jesus first coming and that the new covenant is not for the church, or even for this age!!!
Here I just want to start the ball rolling and from there we can jump into the details as they come up. I need your help; I am no expert in the subject. I expect new tangents to come up. Hope others will throw in their ideas on this, but if not I hope at least our discussion won’t be a nuisance. It will get a bit technical and so might bore many, feel free to ignore our posts on the subject!
Anyone out there interested here are some questions to jump-start things. Answer some of these questions from your perspective. You don’t have to do all of them, just pick one you think is important to you. Or just ask a new one and answer it!! Anything will do!!!
1. Why do you think this is an important subject? What issues are at stake when dealing with dispensationalism or other systems on the market?
2. Do we have to have a system, or can we "just stick with the bible”?
3. Can we just pick and choose from different systems and still be consistent?
4. Do you think dispensationalists or covenant theology is right? :)
Views: 513
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by RoyW on
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The purpose of the resurrection is not to bring back to life. It is to give the believer a new body. Those believers that are alive at the time will be changed instantaneously. Together with those who have gone before they are caught up to meet the Lord in the sky. This is the event many of we Christians call the rapture. It comes near the end of this age. Those who die in the Lord are spoken of as being asleep. The event I am speaking of is found in Daniel:
Da 12:1-4
12 "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people — everyone whose name is found written in the book — will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever. 4 But you, Daniel, close up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge." NIV
How do you explain this event?
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Permalink Reply by Dusty Rhodes on
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Roy, I explain by reading Daniel 12: 4-13...
In Daniel 12:8 Daniel asks what you just asked me.
And his question is answered. in Dan12: 9-13
For me there is a key in Dan 12:4 which is also
referenced in Revelation 22;10-11. May as well read
to the end. It has to do with time and how our perception
of time ( measurement of ) hinders our spiritual .view.
How can one think of infinity in finite terms? It's
not possible.
"many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased".
Not spiritual knowledge but emperical....worthless..... -
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Dusty,
That leads me to the question of the bodily resurrection of Jesus. Do you believe He rose bodily from the dead? Do you believe that He rose in the exact same body that died on that cross. Was He flesh and bones in His resurrected body? This glorified body that Jesus had was both physical and spiritual. Our resurrection will be like His. They put a physical body in that tomb and after the resurrection, that body was gone. It was raised.
When we die in the Lord, we will be raised with a physical body as well. It will be glorified. We shall be like Him. Do you believe this, Dusty?
Roy -
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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on
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Greetings Dusty,
Many people believe there are two seperate dispensations. One for Jews and another for Christian Gentiles.
Many people believe that we are in the midst of one of the seven dispenstations. There are not two happening at the same time, but this one has to come to close in order for the next one to start.
When one reads Matt 23;1-39. Every covenant made with national Israel was termaninated by the Son of God, Jesus.
I would be interested in you illustrating your POV regarding this Scripture where you believe that the covenant has been termnated.
You will find most people believe they are adhering to the Bible the same as you belive you are adhering to the Bible. Which man is right on every topic? You, me, another, or none?
Welcoe to AAG. Let me give some friendly advise. There are some topics that carry varied views by Christians who love Jesus. You appear to be one who strongly believes in your POV, welcome to the club :-) Please be sure that you remain respectfull when dealing with opposing views. Not everyone will see it as you see it.
Lord Bless,
LT
TheNET Coordinator
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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on
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Amen LT.
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David,
Have you ever considered what Jesus was saying when He told the people that unless they become like a little child, they cannot enter the Kingdom of God? The rich young ruler came up to Him just after that asking what He must do to have eternal life. He didn't even hear the conversation about becoming like a little child. I believe that is in Mark 10.
Roy
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Hey my bro Roy,
Yes, I have meditated on that portion of scripture beloved. Any particular reason why you are asking?
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People were bringing their little children to Jesus for Him to bless them. He was very willing but the disciples became indignant and rebuked the parents for bothering the Lord. Jesus instructed them to allow them to bring the children for such as these belong the Kingdom of God. And then He said, "Mk 10:15 I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it." NIV
This is what gives so many people such problems. They don't know how to become like a little child. We all remember what it was to be a little child. I can remember very vividly when Christmas would come around. I couldn't wait as I knew there would be Christmas presents. I loved the tree, the food, the fun but nothing came even close to the presents. As a little child I never had one thought of what I had to do to earn the presents. I just knew my parents and grandparents would get me presents. As I grew older I began to think as I received gifts that I needed to give gifts back. If someone gave me something I should give them something. Then, I became the parent. I so enjoyed giving my little ones presents. I never had a thought that they needed to do something to earn the presents. I gave them the presents because I loved them. As my children grew older I began to teach them responsibility on so on, but Jesus is talking about receiving salvation as a little child. We must think of God as someone that gives free gifts expecting absolutely nothing in return. The Father loves to see the grateful heart that is so thankful. This is why He enjoys praise. He enjoys giving.
As Jesus was finishing speaking and preparing to leave for Jerusalem to His death just a few days from this a rich young ruler came to Him and asked Him what he must do to earn eternal life. He had missed the entire point. "Sir, you must become like a little child. You can't do anything to earn eternal life." Jesus, knowing the man had missed everything explained that to do you had to be perfect, and pronounced to him to obey all the law. The man said, "I have been doing all that from my childhood." (This was obviously not true but it didn't matter anyway.) Jesus then said to him to sell all he had and give to the poor. The man went away sad because he had great wealth.
Jesus then went on to tell His disciples that it would be easier for a camel to go through an eye of a needle then for a rich man to enter God's Kingdom.
Why is it so difficult for the rich to enter God's Kingdom? The reason is because the rich man does not think like a child. He thinks in terms of profit and loss, earning a profit for his investments, or providing a service to receive compensation. His mind in no way thinks like a little child. What he should have said was, "Lord, give me of this life."
Instead, he entered the conversation as to what he could do for the Lord. "I would like to earn your blessing," he said. What a shame! He missed the entire point of becoming like a child. So many are like this today. They think of what they need to do rather than what He has already done for us. He has done absolutely everything necessary for us to receive life. There is absolutely nothing left for us to do. We need to be like that little child that we used to be when we were not thinking about all of our responsibilities (I will get jumped on for this one) but just thinking about receiving from the one who could give.
I still love Christmas. But nothing could ever compare with this free gift of eternal life that I have received from my Father.
Still a child,
Roy
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Roy, This sharing is relative to your above questions. This site didn't leave
me any way to reply so I transferred your questions.
"That leads me to the question of the bodily resurrection of Jesus. Do you believe He rose bodily from the dead? Answer: Yes
Do you believe that He rose in the exact same body that died on that cross.
Answer: I believe what the Bible says. Thomas placed his hands on Jesus's
wounds. ( physical ) Two other friends didn't see Him but their hearts were warmed ( spiritual ). He actually
ate food with one group. You know the story as well as I do. So, I guess what it comes
down to is- not what I believe or know but what you believe.
The actual acension of God's Son was interesting. Two witnesses, wearing white, asked
Peter and the others why they were looking and staring at their friend ( Jesus ) rising. That means they could see Him.There was no answer forthcoming from the disciples.. So, the guys wearing white
answered your question.
Was He flesh and bones in His resurrected body? answer: Yes and no...
This glorified body that Jesus had was both physical and spiritual. Answer: Yes
Our resurrection will be like His. answer. No
They put a physical body in that tomb and after the resurrection, that body was gone. It was raised. answer. Jesus's physical body was not in the tomb and it was gone from the tomb but was not raised. Yet.....
When we die in the Lord, we will be raised with a physical body as well. It will be glorified. We shall be like Him. Do you believe this, Dusty?
Answer. I believe when you see the Lord you will be like Him because you will see Him as He really is. Do you believe this, Roy. I do
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Dusty,
I must admit that I read your profile. When I read it I became curious as to just what you believe. I thought to myself, does Dusty believe that Jesus is God? Perhaps the second most direct question I could ask would be about His physical resurrection. I must admit that your answer left me with more questions than answers. When you say that "Jesus' physical body was not in the tomb and it was gone but was not raised," I sense that maybe you have different beliefs than I concerning Who Jesus is. Are you willing to state plainly without a lot of spiritual jargon just Who Jesus is?
Please, don't be offended about what I am asking. You say that you are on here to teach us. I just want to make sure that you really are a believer in Jesus as He is presented in Scripture and as He presented Himself to the world. They killed Him because He claimed to be God and equal with God. Do you believe that Jesus was with God in the beginning and was God? Or, do you believe that at some point He came from the Father or something like that.
Thank you for your understanding of my question. I pray for God's leading in your life.
Roy
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Good advice. No worries, my POV isn't writen in stone.
I love other people's point of view. That's why I'm here.
No one can here the sound of one hand clapping.........
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Wicus,
You will find that in the church that are differences of opinions on certain issues. However, we are all in agreement on the basic fundamentals of the faith. Your faith in Jesus is all that is required for salvation. Not being a dispensationalist or CT believer does not mean you are lost. However, you will find that as you study the Word you will become more knowledgeable about His Word. You will begin to understand such things as redemption, sanctification, adoption, love, the gifts, the fruit, eschatology, salvation issues and on and on we could go.
We all agree that faith in Jesus Christ as God the Savior will save you from your sins. However, there will be some that do not interpret the Bible exactly the same way that you do. Also, your ideas will change as you become more knowledgeable. That is normal and exciting.
Not knowing certain things does not mean you are lost. Not having understanding of some things does not mean you are lost. You are not saved by knowledge, you are saved by faith. You are probably still focused on that process which is very good. However, don't think that is all there is. He has so much for you but you are going to have to get into His Word to find those wonderful truths. I agree we will never understand it all but we will certainly gain in our understanding the more we study His Word.
The Lord bless you in your journey.
Roy
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