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Are We Dispensationalists or covenant believers?
For those that are interested in an in depth discussion about dispensationalism and the couple other options out there, jump on in. I know Roy wanted to discuss it; I am just leaving it out in the open for others that want to join in and help us work this through.
For those that haven’t looked into this subject let me say it is a big subject. It deals with the overall theological grid we interpret scripture from. It is basically a system of hermeneutics (the system that helps us interpret scripture). I know of 3 main choices on the market and maybe 4.
1. Dispensationalism
2. Covenant theology
3. Progressive dispensationalism
4. (maybe) preterism- also called "realized eschatology" (not sure if this is in the same category, but as I read a bit on this it has a hermeneutic all to itself as does dispensationalism, so I think it is one of the "big systems" on the market for interpreting the old and new testament writings)
Dispensationalism is the system that has given rise to such doctrines as a 7 year tribulation, rebuilt temple, pre-trib (and any-trib) rapture. These I think are accepted by most people in my beloved Pentecostal family.Dispensationalism confused me because using dispensationalism hermeneutics, if done honestly and consistently, leads to some things that are clearly not normative. For example, if we hold to normative dispensationalism we must believe that the kingdom of God has not come in any form, even partially, at this point in history. We must believe that the new covenant has not begun and wont until the millennium in which it will be exclusively for Jews according to the flesh. Now I can’t imagine anyone saying the kingdom didn’t come at least in part with Jesus first coming and that the new covenant is not for the church, or even for this age!!!
Here I just want to start the ball rolling and from there we can jump into the details as they come up. I need your help; I am no expert in the subject. I expect new tangents to come up. Hope others will throw in their ideas on this, but if not I hope at least our discussion won’t be a nuisance. It will get a bit technical and so might bore many, feel free to ignore our posts on the subject!
Anyone out there interested here are some questions to jump-start things. Answer some of these questions from your perspective. You don’t have to do all of them, just pick one you think is important to you. Or just ask a new one and answer it!! Anything will do!!!
1. Why do you think this is an important subject? What issues are at stake when dealing with dispensationalism or other systems on the market?
2. Do we have to have a system, or can we "just stick with the bible”?
3. Can we just pick and choose from different systems and still be consistent?
4. Do you think dispensationalists or covenant theology is right? :)
Views: 513
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by RoyW on
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Okay, Pastor David,
I need some clarification. This article that Kneeling put up says he is a remnant theology person. I agreed with almost everything he said even though I thought this was a replacement theology position.
I believe the church is God's fulfillment of His promises to Abraham. I do think Jesus with His church will rule during a millennial period from Jerusalem. I believe it will be the Jews (sheep, not goats) that will inhabit this nation and will expand to the whole earth. I am not even close to being sure about that last statement - it is just something that I think is a possibility. When the Jews accept Jesus their Messiah, they will not become a part of the church. Only those who are of the remnant fulfill this promise to Abraham.
That is probably all messed up. All the promise of God are to the church. The church was the whole purpose of God's coming. He loved that physical nation but He moved on. When Scripture says, "all Israel will be saved," that includes us. We are a part of the true Israel. Israel includes the remnant Jews and the newly born-again Gentiles. Once that number is complete, He is returning. I do not see a period where no more Gentiles will be saved while a bunch of Jews are being saved. I don't see that in Scripture. I know some believe that but surely that is not the case.
Roy
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Permalink Reply by Michael Vernon McEntire on
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Mmm, interesting stuff! However, I think that the fact that there is SO MUCH diversity of opinion among Believers about these topics idicates that it is speculation, not revelation; in other words, not that one opinion is right and another one is wrong, but that the Holy Ghost is just not speaking to us on this topic. I'm reminded of when the Apostles asked the Resurrected Christ if he would at that time restore the kingdom to Israel. His answer was that it was not for them to know. Also, I think that sometimes it is just as interesting to notice what Christ does NOT say. For example, in answer to this question, Jesus did not say that he was not going to restore the kingdom to Israel.
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Permalink Reply by Rita Cullimore on
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My opinion, for what it is worth, is that Dispensational Theology gives order to the study and understanding of the Bible. Because I believe that not only the writing of the Bible, but the translation of the Bible, is God inspired, I think that the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God are two entirely different Kingdoms but the Kingdom of Heaven is any earthly event or happening but that the Kingdom of God is a heavenly or eternal event or place. I believe that the Kingdom of Heaven leads one to the Kingdom of God.
Dispensationalism is not to mask anything but it does bring order into the events written in the Word of God. The trouble is when people knock it without really looking at it.
But for me, I like it.
Blessings,
Rita
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If someone has the answer to this question, I would like to hear it. Some of you are great researchers and I have confidence that some have this answer. We were having this discussion about covenant theology and dispensationalism. Then Kneeling brings up this third group called remnant theology. Who can tell me who these people are? Are these mostly Jews that are attempting to retain their identity and feel being consumed by the Gentile church? If so, I feel there is some problem with the theology of this group.
I have not found much on this topic on the net and I don't have a book on it. Therefore, someone help me. There is a really good article posted and if you would like to read it the link is: http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Articles/Israel/israel.html. (If that doesn't work go to their home page and there is a link to the article on the home page. It is labeled "hot.")
This link is obviously a Jewish born-again believer. It is a very good article and is very lengthy. I copied and pasted in for further study and it took 24 pages in Word single spaced. If you read it better settle in for a while since it is lengthy and requires some concentration on the reader's part. It seems that this person has his biggest problem with covenant theology which he labels replacement theology. He believes that replacement theology shows the church replacing Israel as the recipient of God's promises. The new Israel is the church. The descriptions (which look like Venn diagrams) show the church being grafted into remnant Israel as opposed to remnant Israel being necessarily grafted into the Gentile church.
The problem I have with this particular site is that it comes across more as disgruntled Jews who feel their identity is being lost. I see a lot of comments about Calvin and Luther being anti-Semitic. I understand that some of their comments are offensive but the truth is what they say is correct. They blame the Jews for the crucifixion. Of course, that is correct. The Romans didn't want to do it but felt forced to by the Jews or suffer the consequences of some kind of rebellion. I don't think it really matters as He did have to be killed by humans. The Jews to me represent the human race that would kill their own Savior. I know that trivializes some difficult matters but I just don't see Luther and Calvin as being evil or any others that lay the crucifixion to the feet of the Jews. We are all equally guilty of the crime. None of us have an excuse. It was our sin that drove Him to the cross. The Jews and the Romans were simply pawns in the hands of a loving God.
Now, according to this author, the issue is whether the church is grafted into remnant Israel or is remnant Israel required to be grafted into the Gentile church. This person's objection is that he feels that we feel that remnant Israel is being forced to being grafted into the Gentile church. When I say "we" that puts me somewhat into the covenant camp. However, I do see some issues there as well.
Okay, so who is grafted into whom? To me this is the entirety of the problem and the issue with remnant theology with covenant theology. My answer to who is grafted into whom is that neither are grafted into the other. We are both grafted into Him. Remnant Israel represents the natural branches and the believing Gentiles represent the wild branches. Yet, in this New Covenant, both are equal. There is absolutely no difference.
God is the tree and it is all His plan. We are all a part of His plan. Jesus did not come to make us all Jews. He came to make us Israel. That is who we are. Jesus in the seed of Abraham and we are part of Him. Our boast is completely and 100% in Him. None of us (including the Jews) have anything within themselves to boast about. God is no respecter of persons. When the Jews rejected Him, we are the ones He went after. The fact that they were invited first should not make us envious. I am just grateful to be invited. If I am the last one to get an invitation, then so be it. If the only reason I got an invitation is because the Jews rejected theirs, then I should be grateful that they rejected it. Now I am rambling but why should there be such a response like this one preaching remnant theology. The argument I am seeing is who is grafted into Whom. I believe that is a wrong response.
Now, what about covenant theology? I do see a problem here as well. I probably fit into this group more than any but what I see is a bit of scrambling. How do we completely explain the present regathering of Israel? Obviously, God is not finished with this people. His plans still include in some way the physical descendants of Jacob. However, that does not in anyway nullify His plans for Israel which we are. The remnant is the true Israel. They should not attempt to remain a part of ethnic Israel. Why would they? What I see in Romans 10 and 11 is the idea that Jews shouldn't boast but neither should Gentiles. God could at anytime take this privilege away. We should be grateful for our situation. I think sometimes we can get caught up in who gets to sit by Jesus at the table. We need to be grateful that we are going to be there. By wondering if we get to sit closest to Him we degrade what He has done for us.
God is obviously not finished with that land over there called Israel. We should be in total support of that land going back to the Jews. I am. I am an American and I am proud to be an American. But, the day we quit our support of Israel, that will all change in my mind. God has raised us up for this very purpose. The worst thing we could ever do as a nation would be to stop our absolute support of this nation and I hope we continue to see that.
Another purpose of America was to fulfill God's plan to spread the Gospel into the world. That cannot stop either. God has blessed us and at anytime He can remove that blessing.
Blessed be the name of our God. I am with Him whatever He is doing in our world. For me, I belong to Him first. That should be our focus.
Roy
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Kneeling,
Who is ethnic Israel? We call ourselves here in America the melting pot of the world. However, I think that title has to go to what we today call Israel. The Israel of today is comprised of Oriental Jews, Russian Jews, American Jews, etc., etc. Today, you can find virtually every genetic Gentile DNA within the Jews from all over the world. So, what is a Jew? I think of a Jew as someone who believes in a monotheistic God but rejects Jesus as the Messiah. Of course, that generalization is not accurate but is certainly a concept. I really don't think this accurately represents what we read in Scripture.
I do believe Israel was God's plan but what is Israel? The Jews was definitely a major part of that plan but not the complete plan. Throughout the Old Covenant God refers to another people. Even before the Old Covenant He gives hints that He has a plan. Beginning with Genesis all the way through Malachi His plan includes the human race. This plan existed long before Jacob was born or even Abraham. But, the plan is there. God gives us a huge hint when He proclaims that His plan would come through the Seed of Abraham. His plan was exactly what He had in mind when He chose Isaac over Ishmael and Jacob over Esau. The plan is His and His alone.
Man sees himself as so big and so powerful. Here he comes with his free will idea and actually thinks he can thwart God's plan. Our part is to accept and submit to His plan. Even in our beloved passages like Romans 9-11, we must shed all arrogance and pride and simply be grateful we are included. There is no way we can completely understand what all He is doing. He didn't make us God, He made us human which cannot understand His ways. That is why we have so many different interpretations but all agree on the essentials of the faith. Those He has made absolutely clear.
The covenant theology people see a consistency in His plan while the dispensationalist see Him doing a brand new thing in the church. Both views are completely understandable along with this remnant theology plan. All, however, link to the Old Covenant but see the New has superseding the Old. Some of the claims made by adherents to the groups seem to represent the other groups as being in error. I have read testimonies from some that would call the other group as from Satan. Nonsense!
Should we have a view? I think it is good that we do. We all view Scripture from a particular perspective. Those who are coming to Him at the beginning should see Him differently than how they view Him after years of study and experience. "If you haven't changed your mind on certain issues, you haven't been doing a whole lot of study," is my opinion. I personally have gone from being completely Arminian to mostly Calvinistic. I did that not from reading books on the different positions but by reading the Bible. Everyone is at a certain place in their understanding of Scripture and no one should pretend they have it all figured out. At one time I was convinced I was dispensational but now I am even questioning that.
Romans 9-11 refers to Israel but not the Israel that people think of. It refers to God's plan of redemption for His people. I see in Scripture a plan of God and Israel is a major part of that plan. Israel refers to that group of chosen ones from before the foundation of the earth - long before the birth of Jacob. Adam would fall but Jesus would not. That was God's plan. Jesus would fulfill all of God's purposes and bring redemption to His family.
Remnant theology has some really good things to say. It doesn't answer all my question but is a good frame. I see more and more the covenant of grace, however, racing throughout all Scripture and not beginning with the New Covenant but with the Old and even before. I see the covenant of grace including God's plan from the very beginning. That makes a lot of sense to me.
I have drawn an illustration of what I presently see in Scripture. I don't know how I will get it to embed but will try.
I'm not sure if that will work or not but here is the old college try. Please tell me the changes that need to be made in it.
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The millennium as I see it is the time Jesus will rule here on earth in the city of Jerusalem. The bride (church) will rule with Him.
The covenant theology group doesn't seem to like the replacement theology term being placed upon them. However, it does appear that in a sense the church is the new Israel. The church is the chosen of God, now. There will come the day when the church is complete and God will once again focus on ethnic Israel. We may even now be nearing that day. However, what I don't see that some see is that the Gentiles will stop being saved and then the Jews will be saved. The day I see when all Israel shall be saved is the day when the full number of Jews and Gentiles are saved and removed from their earthly system and placed in the heavenly Kingdom.
I see ethnic Israel as you. I don't see that God is finished with this people. I think this group of people will continue even beyond the millennium. However, this is only speculation as I don't have much Scripture in that area. I do see too many verses being spoken about that nation that appear to assure its continuance.
I think it will be difficult for us to even imagine what things will be like on into eternity. If humans continue transportation will become amazing. The new heavens could support interplanetary travel. However, I see them all coming back to Israel every year. That idea is not worth a whole lot, however. I see the church reigning with Christ on into eternity and it does seem to me that there will have to be something or someone to reign over. However, there may be some blending here with the millennial reign of Christ. I am going to change the word on my tree to ethnic Israel.
Roy
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Roy,
I agree with your statement here but do you think it will be the city as it stands on this earth or the heavenly city that comes down from heaven?
Linda
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I believe we will live in that heavenly city throughout eternity. I don't encourage, however, agreeing with my statement here as I don't even know if I agree with it or not. However, I do know that our place of living with Christ will be in that heavenly city. I am not sure about humans in eternity. I just think there probably will continue a human race on into eternity that will repopulate this earth.
That is all speculation.
Roy
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Roy did the statement disappear or am I going mad - LOL! I too believe we will live in the heavenly city throughout eternity and rule with Him (Rev 5:10). If we rule/reign then we must be ruling/reigning over something which appears to be the earth as stated in the scripture. So your speculation may not be so speculative at all........
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No, the statement is still there just a couple of posts above. It is at the end of a longer post.
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I am thinking that those Jews who are committed to Old Testament Scripture still have a future. For some reason they reject Jesus as Messiah. They will accept Him when He comes the second time. However, they will not become a part of the church. At least I do not think they will. What happens to these people. There are many wonderful people still committed to God's Old Testament Word. They faithfully, to the best of their ability, seek to honor God and His Word. I am just wondering what is going to happen to these people. What will happen to them at the final resurrection? That, is another interesting study.
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Yes, the sixth seal is a candidate, but I put the rapture at the last trumpet sound (7th trumpet) and then comes the seven bowls of wrath. We will escape that wrath. However, it can be said that the seals are already opened and we are even now working on the last trumpet sounds. That is another view that I am interested in and does seem to have credibility. I no longer believe in the idea that there will be a pre-trib rapture and then God begins to deal with the Jews. That I no longer believe even though I did use to believe that. However, I have noticed that some in remnant theology identify the pre-trib group as a cult. That is way out of line. They are not going to make many friends that way. Virtually all my Christian friends are in the separation theology (as they call it). I can definitely say that these people have their faith in Jesus and love God.
Roy -
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