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in IJohn 5:16 what is the sin that john is refering too
in I john 5:16 it refers to a sin that leads to death. what sin is he refering to?
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Permalink Reply by Larry on
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Ron
2 John 5:16 identifies the 'sin committor' as a brother (believer), not the unsaved. Blaspemy (in Matt 12:31) and 'unbelief' of a former believer are the same. Check Heb 6: 4 - 7.
Sorry, but the sin John is talking about is 'unbelief'.
Larry
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Permalink Reply by Ron Payne on
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Larry
Yes! The person John speaks of, is as you so rightly say: "a brother (believer), not the unsaved." But to say that the believer's sin is "Unbelief" cannot create in my mind a Believer who does not Believe. This becomes a paradox. (A Non believing Believer).
I do not believe that any truly born again spirit filled believer can deliberately become a Blasphemer of the very Spirit that he already believes in and possesses. Otherwise he could NEVER be a Christian. Therefore "unbelief" is definitely not the answer to this believer in 1John 5:16.
Blasphemy in Matt 12:31 refers to people who reject the Holy Spirit, or even the existence of the Holy Spirit and Yes, should they continue in this vein they will never believe. But these are unbelievers not believers.
My reference to a sin unto death as possibly a person who is waiting for execution, could well be a Christian, for whom we should not pray that he may escape the penalty of of the murder. It is this sin that has caused him to face the death penalty. (A Sin unto Death)
This belief may or may not be correct, but for me it is the most plausible explanation. Other theories raise too many questions.
No matter what sin, ALL SIN is SIN and will cause death to the Unbeliever who rejects Christ as his sin Bearer. One sin cannot possibly be greater than another. But the only sin that God cannot forgive is Unbelief that therefore also rejects repentance.
But we see as you say, the man is already a Believer which rules out unbelief.
Unless of course one believes that a Born Again Christian filled with the Holy Spirit can become an unbeliever. This I reject and find impossible.
Ron
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Ron
Sympathize with you about a Believer backslidding so far that he becomes an unbeliever. Had the same feeling for years. And, in the grand scheme of things, as long as we remain believers, it doesn't really matter. Jesus tells us that there are some things He says that not all men can accept (Matt 19:11).
However, if you become a teacher, recommend you at least offer listeners the option to accept the fact that a believer can become an unbeliever. Hebrews 6: 4-6 is pretty clear:
There are people who "..have once been enlightened, who have conciously tasted the heavenly gift, and have become sharers of the Holy Spirit, and have felt how good the Word of God is and the mighty powers of the age to come, ..." (Amp Bible)or Believers
These Believers "... deviate from the faith and turn away from their allegiance" or become unbelievers (Amp Bible).
The sin leads to spiritual death "... For it is impossible to restore or bring again to repentance ..." (Amp Bible)
Because they blasphme God "... and are holding [Him] up to contempt and shame and public disgrace." (Amp Bible)
Inductive logic harmonizes all the verse we have been writing about by saying there is one (and only one) sin that a believer can commit that leads to spritual death and can not be forgiven (so why bother to pray for it) which is unbelief.
Larry
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Hi Larry,
The belief that truly born again Spirit filled Christians cannot lose their salvation, is a belief I hold. All the Readers of that claim are not compelled by me to believe it.
Regarding Hebrews chapter 6:4-6 I have a problem, because if I was defending the possibility of Christians losing their salvation, this is the last proof verse I would use.
Firstly Paul is writing to the Hebrews (the Jews) and obviously from what he says, there are some Jews who having had a trial run at the Christian faith, have changed their minds and wish to return to the laws of Moses and the sacrificial system.
Paul warns them that if they should turn away, they will no longer be able to look to the sacrificial system for forgiveness of sins. Paul speaks of them as ones who have only "tasted" the new Christian faith and not really accepted it. Trusting rather the Sacrificial system than Christ's sacrifice. Remember the Pharisees how steeped they were in religion.
Second point: The word "Impossible" must not be overlooked. It would be impossible for Jews to return, because they were going back to something they understood and had considered it a "Better way" than Christianity.
Again keep in mind Paul says it would be impossible for them to return. Yet we clearly see and possibly all know of someone who turned his/her back on Christianity and back to the old way of life outside of Christ. Yet it has not been impossible for them to return.
Therefore this brings me to the Third point:
The word "Tasted" must not be overlooked.
Where are the millions over the years who have attended evangelical meetings and answered to the appeal to come out and accept Christ, But have fallen away and have never been able to come back. Why? Because, anyone who tastes a sip of wine, cannot be accused of drinking it. Likewise millions only experience a taste of Christianity, no real saving experience. After that, when someone asks them to come to another meeting or to come to church, their answer is: "No thanks, I tried that and it does not work". They have not drunk deep into the "New Wine” only tasted and it never appealed to them.
Conclusion: Experience tell us that it is not impossible for TRUE Christians to fall away and yet return and renew their positions as Christians once again.
We therefore see that Hebrews 6:4-6 is a poor example to use as a platform to prove that true Christians can lose their Salvation.
Again Hebrews 10:26 confirms the fact that Paul is really applying Hebrews 6:4-6 to the Jews and the Old Testament requirements for their forgiveness, which can no longer work.
"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins." Heb 10:26.
There is an answer of course to those who fall away permanently and that is that they are not truly Born again Christians. John tells us this in 1st John.
"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us." 1Jn 2:19
One last word: I believe that if Paul felt that he could have possibly lost his salvation, then not being one who was given to presumptuous statements, he would never had said: "For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: For I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day." 2Tim 1:12. IF Paul fell away what would God do with the things that Paul committed to God while he was still a Christian.
Blessings - Ron
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By The way Larry as you know the AMP Bible is a paraphrase of another man's beliefs and should not be used to prove Biblical doctrine.
Ron
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Ron
The Amplified Bible is actually a Bible translation that a committee of qualified Hebrew and Greek scholars prepared over a period of about seven years. It is much less prone to being tainted by a single man's belief than the other translations. The English language is very poor to communicate in, so the Amplified was developed to give the reader the actual English words or phrases that the Hebrew and Greek were saying.
It is the only Bible that should be used for English speaking individuals to fully understand Bible doctrine.
Larry
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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on
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Your view of the Amplified Bible is subjective. There are numerous good translations, all of which were translated by teams, not a single individual's pressing their beliefs. Any serious student of God's Word will not rest in the English translation alone of any one Bible and will study both the Greek and the Hebrew as well.
Lord Bless,
LT -
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Larry.
The Amplified Bible is simply another Book attempting to assist Readers in understanding the Bible. Some versions use paraphrasing while others have used different methods to accomplish this common aim. The Amp Bible accomplishes this by the amplification of sentences that contain words with more than one meaning.
The Amp Bible IS NOT another translation of the Greek Text. It is based rather on the American Standard Version that was a minor American revision of the English Revised Version of Westcott and Hort.
In formulating the Amp Bible, The Greek text was used by the authors when looking for English words that would give Readers a choice when coming across difficult passages. These words would then be placed in the verse which then Amplified, not paraphrased the verse. People are left to make their own choice as to which word they feel is the best. This could be misleading and dangerous under certain instances. .
Mention Westcott and Hort today and a number of eyebrows will be raised depending on what side of the doctrinal fence one sits. Needless to say the W and H text used for the English Revised Version is no longer used today except by Jehovah Witnesses.
I have no problem with the Amp Bible. It makes for easy reading just as any paraphrased Bible does. BUT! Scholars would definitely not use any of these paraphrased or amplified versions to rightly divide the word or formulate doctrine.
Remember too Translators are subject to their own beliefs and whether they lean towards Arminian, Calvinist, Post trib, Pre Trib, pre mil or A mil, Liberal or Evangelical, they will be inclined to favour different words which will add their favoured emphasis to the verse.
In closing, I repeat, it is impossible to be an Unbelieving Believer in Christ, which you have also used in your mail to LT. It is a Paradox. The people mentioned in Hebrews 6 were not Born Again Believers baptised by the Holy Spirit into the body of Christ. They had merely “tasted” and preferred to rather return to the sacrificial system introduced by Moses. Hence Paul’s warning.
Blessings - Ron -
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Permalink Reply by ScribeD on
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Larry, thanks for that insight. I had shied away from TAB because I had been previously told what Ron has said. I will have to do some homework and learn more about that version.
Scribe -
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Ron
Writing to Hebrews yes. Trial run for Christianity? Don't see where you get that. No, these people "have been once for all enlightened" (Amp Bible). They are not sampling, although they are still spritual infants (Heb 5:13). The writer of Hebrews (not Paul) wants to take them to advanced teaching (Heb 6:1,2).
Really know this bothers you, but a true Christian can actually become an unbeliever. Doesn't happen instantly or with one backslide. It happens when one develops the habit of omitting God from their personal life. Am sure God increases the discipline to keep His precious child from falling into unbelief and the entire process may take years before unbelief ocurs. But it MUST be possible or there would be no free will.
Your selection of Heb 10:26 (a Christian) actually supports it because the writer using the pronoun "we".
Larry
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For one to become a child of God by the grace of God and then for that person to not be a child of God does not align with Scripture. If one becomes a new creation (2 Cor 5:17) how can one become an old creation when the new has come and the old has gone? When one is marked as a child what kind of God would God be if He disowned His own children? Hebrews 12 speaks of God disciplining His children and the prodigal son's father never disowns his son. The son wandered, but at no point was he no longer a son of the father. To state that one can lose their salvation is interesting in itself. Do we acknowledge that one is saved and then draw a line and state "that if you start to slip back you better catch yourself before you cross this line or you are lost forever?" This concept erases assurance in the work of Christ and puts too much emphasis on man and His part.
One is not saved by man-made or man-attained faith. The Word says "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God" The faith we speak of is a gift of God as empowered by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit illumnates the truth of God to the lost soul and that person is given the opportunity to surrender their life to Jesus, or not.
We are saved by grace and that salvation is maintained by grace. The emphasis is on God and not man.
Regarding 1 John 5:16, there is no clear answer to what John meant. One can suppose, but there too many variables to clearly answer the the question.
I am not troubled by the thought that someone can lose their salvation, because I do not believe Scripture substantiates that point of view. I do recognize that many are troubled over the idea that one cannot lose their salvation, but accept the truth of God's word and trust in the Father's heart.
Lord Bless,
LT
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