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I am really confused on this one, why do people identify themselves as calvanists??? aren't we all christians, dont we all believe in one God and that he gave us Jesus his only begotten son to die for us all, everyone.
So what is this about CALVANISM???? why the "isms"
its like you are worshipping and following this calvin guy. arent we suppose to identify ourselves as Christians the Jesus people. not the Calvin people???
Who is Calvin, for people to identify themselves as calvinists???calvanist christians? im confused im sorry please explain this to me!!!!

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He was a french guy who moved to Switzerland and helped to build the government there in the same manner as Cain built the first city-state. Remember Cain walked out of the presence of God. Calvin did too, when he designed a government with top-down authoritative style government. Remember, Jesus said that the greatest amoung you shall be as the least, a servant of all. This is a bottom-up form of government! Just the opposite of Calvin and Cain.

As far as denominations go....what is the bottom number of a mathmatical equation called? It's a denominator, right? What does it do? It divides, right? Well, so do denominations divide! Is Christ divided? No. I wouldn't put too much stock in trade into any denomination, whether Calvin is the head of it, or Cain, or Luther, or Knox, or Zwingli, or the Pope, or Peter, or the man in the moon.

I hope this helps.
David
Because Calvinists like to feel special and set apart from the rest of regular Christians ... They are of the "elect" you see ... according to Calvinists, Christ died only for them and not the World or ALL men/women ... So it's like a very exclusive club where you can be conceited but it's OK ... funny thing is, Calvinists' kids are always born elect it would seem ... isn't that convenient ? ...

Trust me, I've read for years now what Calvinists believe, I know ALL the scriptures they use to support their beliefs, etc. but there is no winning an argument with a Calvinist, they will always insist you are wrong, and they are right, since God has given them a truer revelation of Scripture and it's meaning, their thinking and understanding is above yours, etc. so how can you win that argument ? They are very elitist in their mentality, though they will swear they are humble, while still insisting you're wrong...

Check out a good book, "Why I Am Not Calvinist" by Jerry L. Walls & Joseph R. Dongell

http://www.amazon.com/Why-I-Am-Not-Calvinist/dp/0830832491/

I'm currently reading it right now and it makes a lot more sense than Calvinism ...

Remember 2 Peter 3:9, "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." God wills that ALL would repent and be Saved ...

The Calvinists will say in the above passage (based on the version/translation) that "anyone" "everyone" "ALL" etc. still refers only to the "elect" ... so again, it's not even worth arguing with them ... everything becomes twisted to meet their beliefs ... Calvinists must always be RIGHT ... Just like their founder, John Calvin, who had Michael Servetus burned alive at the stake, for Servetus' challenging Calvin's beliefs ...

John Calvin, displaying the love of Christ, wrote after his having Servetus put to a horrible painful death for disagreeing with him ...

"Many people have accused me of such ferocious cruelty that (they allege) I would like to kill again the man I have destroyed. Not only am I indifferent to their comments, but I rejoice in the fact that they spit in my face."

And on a separate occassion:

"Honour, glory, and riches shall be the reward of your pains; but above all, do not fail to rid the country of those scoundrels, who stir up the people to revolt against US. Such monsters should be exterminated, as I have exterminated Michael Servetus the Spaniard."

What a swell guy that John Calvin ! I certainly want to follow his theology and beliefs and trust in his view of God/Salvation ...
Hi Jonathan, I appreciate your response. I really do, in that it was very kind and respectful.

We'll just have to agree to disagree. We are both free to have our own beliefs and yours are ones that you believe strongly in, as I do mine.

I do not believe in the God that Calvinism paints a picture of ... that is not how God has revealed himself to me personally at least ... a God that chooses only some to salvation, while sending the rest to Hell, never giving the rest any chance at salvation or allowing them to know Him ... that does not fit the character of the loving God/Christ that I believe in. As for my "assault" on John Calvin ... it's just me posting Calvin's own written words. Calvin's own words speak for themselves of the murder and hate in his heart. Actually, I said he was swell guy !

To sum up my feelings on Calvinism, and to use the word "assault" ... I feel strongly that Calvinism and it's beliefs are an assault on the Character of God/Christ and His Love and gift of Salvation to ALL ...

I did watch the video you provided ... despite the points put across in the video, how does it justify John Calvin in having another man burnt to death, just because they disagreed on theology ? It was all about POWER & PRIDE which are sinful. But I will admit that even if John Calvin's history were different and he hadn't called for the deaths of those who disagreed with him ... I'd still not agree with his theology ... his character just has always made more more suspect, that's all ...

Ultimately, we will never know all the answers this side of Heaven. The important thing to agree on is that Christ died for US and Loves US ... You and I ... and He wants for us to be ONE and not divided, John 17:20-23
... So in that spirit I will say Christ's Love to You ... and even though we may not agree on the topic of Calvinism, Predestination, etc. We are still fellow believers/brothers in Christ ...

Take Care,
Brian
Hi Brian,

I plan to order the book you posted in the original message, as I have had my own experiences with Calvinism. I was in a Reformed church for almost a decade beleiving in what seemed to be an incredible doctrine. In fact, it was incredible...to the point of delusional. I remember having a hard time swallowing the "if ya ain't dutch, ya ain't much" style of Dutch Reformed theology.

In my own studies since those days many years ago, I've recognized the foundation upon which many of the governments of the world base their top-down authoritative forms of leadership. And, I can see a deep level of Calvinistic beliefs in many governments and in many leaders of those governments. When someone perverts the teachings of the Bible in order to make an elitist doctrine, you have the ingredients for an authoritarian dictatorship, as we see in this country, and in countries throughout the west which were influened by Calvin and others like him.

One of the main issues that Calvinists use to separate themselves from others is by setting up a false juxtaposition between Calvinism and Antinomianism/Arminianism. I was recently at a church conference when a stranger approached me and, out of the blue, asked me if I was a Calvinist. Politely, I said, no. In response he said, well, so you're an Arminian? Again, politely I said, no. He had a rather confused look on his face;>) I am neither, and I explained why. While Calvinists look to their doctrine of Predestination as a justification for their belief that they are going to heaven, and others are going to hell, they are told that in Arminianism those folks are exercising their own free-will and falsely beleiving they are saved. Both are incorrect theologically. First, God created man-kind with freedom of Choice, not free-will. If any of us had free-will, we'd never get sick, never grow old, and never die...and, we'd all be able to leap tall buildings in a single bound;>)

This false dichotomy between Calvinism and Antinomianism/Arminianism is used over and over again, AS IF it were the litmus test for salvation. It isn't. The question of salvation is also quite thoroughly distorted, in that, almost everyone going to church believes in a heaven and a hell in the afterlife.

Secondly, I believe you are incorrect as to your present understanding of the afterlife, which is why you wrote that it was not possible to know "all the answers this side of heaven". Brian, hear this....heaven is a political jurisdiction. It exists in real time, here and now. God created the heaven higher than the earth, and the water beneath the earth. To God and those seeking His Kingdom, this is one completely undivided jurisdiction with three associated hierarchical venues. To Satan, these are three entirely separate jurisdictions. Bear with me, let me explain.

I've read and studied the Bible exhaustively for more than 15 years since leaving the Reformed church, and I am unable to find where the concept of a heaven or a hell are supported by the Bible itself. Shocking, but true. Those concepts of the afterlife come from sources outside of the Bible. Specifically, from catholicism, and before that Babylonianism. If you can get a hold of the book, The Two Babylons, by Alexander Hislop, you'll be amazed how such Catholic doctrines have remained in the Protestant churches.

Do you want to know where you go after you die? Read Ecclesiastes. It says that we all go to the same place 3:20. The body returns to the dust, and the spirit to God who gave it ECC 12:7. Removing the afterlife from the equation puts a whole different spin on the entire Bible and our realtionship with God, and Jesus the Christ. Remember what Jesus said, God is a God of the living not of the dead. The Pharisees also misunderstood the nature of salvation and the afterlife. If there were a physical hell in the afterlife, that would not be a place of death. It would be a place of a very different and painful quality of life. Death is death. The concept of hell is more a concept of miserable life. God is not a God of torment and torture for ever and ever, this again, I believe, is a Satanic invention turning people away from a loving God.

Why did Jesus come to the earth? The prophets said he would come to restore all things to God. Jesus came proclaiming the Good News of the kingdom of God! The kingdom of God is for the living! It is here and now, and has been around since the beginning with Adam, but, has been lost and re-discovered time and time again. Abraham walked out of Ur of the Chaldees seeking the kingdom of God; Moses left Egypt seeking it; John the Baptist cried in the wilderness saying, make straight the way of the Lord! Jesus rode triumphantly into Jerusalem as the new King of the kingdom. Pontious Pilate officially judicially declared Jesus the King of the Judeans!

Our King lives, and He has a Kingdom here and now. But, almost no one is in it, because they've all been lied to for hundreds of years as to what the kingdom of God was all about. You see, we've all be told that we can only get into it AFTER we die! Doesn't that sound like a GREAT BIG SATANIC LIE?!?!?! The adversary of God and Christ has successfully deceived millions of "ministers" throughout the last millenium, and hundreds of millions of people. The whole world lieth in darkness.

Men have sought after the dainties of the world offered by the governments of the world, when they should've been putting a knife to their own throats and curtailing the lusts of their hearts. Who is in charge of ALL the governments of the world? Guess? No...prove it to yourself! Read Matthew 4:8-10. That's right, Satan runs all the governments of the world. And, in this country, the 501C3 State-Ordained phony "ministers" have been telling everyone to bow down and serve the enemy government of Christ! The phony "ministers" have been LYING to the congregations telling them that heaven is only AFTER you die, and that while here in earth you must obey the "authorities", because that's what "good christians do". What a bunch of Balderdash! That isn't what Abraham did, or Moses, or Jesus...no...they ex-patriated from the Father of the country they were living in. And, they chose a NEW FATHER, that is the Father in heaven as their Father, not the State! The patrimonial system of laws throughout history have been incredibly consistent, and God hasn't ever changed one whit.

Do a Google search on the "apotheosis of Washington", and you'll begin to see the gods of this country. These are the idols that men worship, the gods whom the phony "ministers" have made idols of. These are the gods who the True and the Living God said, "thou shalt have no other gods before me" and "Thou shalt not bow down nor serve them, for I am a jealous God..."

If you want to know about "salvation", you need to comprehend that it begins here and now, and extends to all of Gods creation, all the venues of His Jurisdiction. You needn't wait to find it. But, you must seek it with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength. And, you must learn to free yourself from the contracts whereby you've unwittingly bound yourself to the powers of the beast.

I know this is probably new to you Brian, and I've laid a lot on you today, but I also know you saw through the maze of Calvinism, and you will find true what I've spoken to you, if you will search the matter out without any of the preconceived notions that have been installed in your mind. Break free from the matrix, reach out into the Light of God, and walk in the kingdom.

Blessings to all in Christ Jesus.

David
dear david

im sorry but i strongly disagree with you. how can u think heaven and hell is what u experience on earth??? do u believe in the second coming of jesus? do know that jesus said that he will come through the clouds sitting on God's right hand and everyone on earth (dead or alive) will be able to see him coming. what do u think Jesus is coming for? isnt that the judgement day? when everyone goes to heaven or hell depends on wat u have been like on earth. that pretty much tell u theres an after life (heaven or hell) heaven is a spiritual world where good born again sin-free souls (spirits)that believe in jesus go and well u know wat hell is for.
are u tellin me that Jesus died so that those who believe can live in an earthly heaven or kingdom of God until they die, then their souls goes back to God and their body back to dust?

No sin goes unpunished, you have to die in hell in a lake of blazing hot fire thats the punishment, this not figurative, this is not miserable life on earth like u think, it is real hell, but because God loves us he himself in form of Jesus died for our sins so that we wont die and burn in hell.
Life on earth is just a journey, the destination pretty much depends on you, you can either end up in hell or in heaven!!!!

i am recently born-again and it really confuses me when people come up with all sorts of theories. esp the whole calvanist thing, that really did set me off. to be honest the first time i read about the elect in the bible i thought they meant believers not the chosen selected people. how on earth do calvanist people know they are the elect?

ARENT BELIEVERS THE ELECTED PEOPLE? so if God already selected a certain few people wat about the rest of the people that arent the elect, wats their fate?

pray for me because i am confused now
Jayne -

You are absolutely correct and right on to disagree with David about his opinions about heaven and hell. There is tons of info about both in the word.

I will respond to David a little later since I got to go to church now.

Be blessed sista.
Hi again Jayne,

There is lots of confusion throughout churchianity because the "ministers" have been riding the fences for so long, they've lost their footing in the kingdom.

Any honest theologian will tell you that "hell" was a dump outside Jerusalem where they used to burn the garbage. And, if they would do some homework, they could also tell you that the word eternal does not mean for ever and ever, and ever, and ever. It meant for the rest of your physical life, that's it, nothing more. Jesus said, "God is a God of the living not of the dead, therefore you greatly err".

I already said what I was telling people was not easy to hear. I didn't expect people to take this sitting down, But, you have to do some homework on your own. Don't take my word for anything! But, don't accept blindly the things you've been told, and accepted all your life as true, because my own research has proven almost everything I was ever taught to be a lie.

The roots of Catholicism run far and wide in the thoughts of everyone! Too much of what people think they know for sure, just ain't so. To find the Truth we must be willing to let goooo of all of our preconceived notions, and look at things again, without blinders on. I can tell you from experience, this is often very hard to do.

What the protestant "churches" teach is merely regurgitated catholicism in many cases. That's why I recommended getting a hold of the book, The Two Babylons, by Alexander Hislop. Read it, and then come back and tell me I was wrong about the Catholic influences upon the protestant churches. The book is more than 150 years old, and is superbly researched. All the people I've ever spoken to about it, all commented about how thorough the man's research was, and that at a time when there were no computers, internet, cars, airplanes, etc. Spend some time reading. Be like the Bereans, check it out. I just gave you a nugget, a freebe;>)

One of the major problems with Biblical interpretation is that pseudonyms (a literary term meaning "false names") are often used to describe certain characters in the Bible. For example there is the "whore that rides the beast". Who or what is this whore? Who, or what is the beast? To know these is to have a little bit of wisdom as to the times we are in today. The great "whore" is also alternatively spoken as "the mother of harlots", therefore she has daughters who also are whores. Who are the "daughters of the whore"? The Whore can be no other than the Catholic Church. The whore's daughters, are then the apostate protestant "churches", who came out of Catholicism, but, cling to the false doctrines taught therein. These are the "churches" most people are going to "in the world", because they are all "of the world". I suspect that I can prove in less that 30 seconds that everyone else on this thread is living IN and OF the world. They are not "saved" from anything in this world, so how can they tell you or anyone else how to be "saved" from a Righteous God?

When the Bible talks about 'Salvation" it is talking about those people who are no longer engaged in the world, and who are no longer OF the world. I guarantee you almost everyone you know is still in the world, and OF the world. None of them are saved. They dont even know what Salvation is.

For the Record: The Bible is NOT primarily a book about "religion", it is a book about governments, and law. Don't believe me? Too hard to accept? Check it out! The word Religion is used exactly 5 times, and the word religious is used exactly twice in the entire Bible! Religion in the Bible has to do with the care of the poor, the widows, and the Fatherless. It is what the government is doing for with their Social Security system, and their Health, Education, and Welfare divisions. The US gov't copied the ancient governments of the world with their systems of Corban [read at Mark 7:11] (alternatively spelled Korban, and Qurban), and Corvee. Look these terms up on the internet, and find out for yourself if I am wrong. Also, look at your Bible and see what is going on in each of the books of the Bible. From Genesis to Revelation, the Bible is about 75-80% about governments and law. It tells you about how Abraham (also known as Brahma to the Hindu's) left Ur of the Chaldees after his bio-dad was slain for not being obedient to the government of his day. It talks of Moses who was the adopted son of Pharoah's daughter, and was next in line to the throne of Egypt, before he decided to ex-patriate from Egypt with all those of his people called the jews. It talks about how the jews forsook God in Samuel chap 8, and went after the other gods, like the nations around them, and how God called that a rejection of God. Read that chapter, and tell me it doesnt sound like today's government in the USA.

The Bible continues to explain how the jews tried to set up kings, and judges, and it Chronicles their journey through time and the struggles they had in operating a government contrary to the ways that God wanted them to live. The prophets railed against the government leaders of their days, and all looked foward to the day when Messiah would come. The Messiah would set up a kingdom that would never end!

Quick question: Was Jesus successful at establishing a government that would never end, or not? If He was not, then, He was not the Messiah. If He did, then why aren't you in it? Either He was successful or He wasn't. That ought to make you pause and think for a moment.

Now, I know that MOST people will argue, that the kingdom of God is only a "spiritual" government. But, I say, ALL governments are "spiritual". There isn't a government on earth that's ever existed that anyone can touch, taste, feel, see, or hear. They are all, in fact, and law, based upon personal BELIEF! Belief is a Spiritual issue! And, ALL governments have a deeply religious component to them. In the USA, the government is secular humanist. The supreme court calls that a Religion, and Atheists in this country get the same 501C3 tax exempt status as the "church" you probably attend. This too ought to be carefully considered.

As to David V's assertion that it is important to go to the right denomination, this is also untrue. What about all the non-denominational churches, and beliefs? Are they "unsaved" in his eyes? We'll have to see what David V has to say about this when he returns. In the meantime, let me make a mathmatical correllary for you. What is the bottom number of a fraction called? It is a denominator, correct? Yes, it is. What does it do in math? It divides. Therefore, what does a denomination do? It divides!!! It seeks to divide the body of Christ. Is Christ divided, No! Therefore, denominations are not in sync with the One True Church. They are yet another false reperesentation masquerading as Truth. The "ministers" of the denominations are leading people down primrose paths to oblivion.

As to specific doctrines to follow, or believe, I cannot direct you in that course either. Just like Gideon, neither my family nor I will not rule over you. We will not dictate to you the things that the Holy Spirit ought to be teaching you if you are searching for God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength. We shun the offer to mold you into our own image and defer to God, the Creator, to make you into whatever form He has decided is best for you in this life and the next. Anyone else who tries to re-shape you into their image of who God is, will only lead you into the same pit they are headed. My advice is, search for God, as you would for the most precious nuggets of gold, silver, and precious stones.

I would refer you to several great websites for more information, but the people who run this site don't like links beyond their own site, for some reason? You'll have to do your own research, or ask me a few questions AFTER you've read some of the information I've already provided.

Finally Jayne, you questioned about Jesus's second coming. For the record, Jesus ALREADY returned a second time, back in AD 66, or 68, depending on whose calendar you're following. This was at the time of the destruction of Jerusalem. Many eyewitnesses claimed to see Jesus along with many other men marching in the clouds. The event was written in the history books of Josephus. Jesus spoke specifically to Caiaphas during one of His trials and turned to him saying, "you shall see me coming on the clouds" of glory. Was Jesus a liar? Was Jesus being deceptive, or misleading? Of course not, but you have to decide what you're going to believe, the Bible or the rumors that you've heard all your life. Although Jesus has come a second time, there is nothing in the Bible to preclude Jesus from coming a third time, or a fourth, or a fifth, so we all have a hope that He will come again when the body of Christ comes together and claims Him to be our Head. Until then, we're all a dead carcase with eagles gnawing on our flesh (get yourself a good book on Heraldry to find out who the eagles are)...and, we're all dry bones in the desert.

I hope this helps.

Blessings in Christ,
David
I can quite easily say that most everyone on this website is living in the world, and of the world, because I know how this society is structured and what the stakes are.

Jesus Himself said He did not come to bring peace, but a sword. If you want to know more, you'll need to read more. I am not here to spoon feed all people, especially those who are not here seeking genuine fellowship.

If you had bothered to read my earlier post, you'd have found Bible cites referenced. And, if you had read the extant post, and were familiar with the Bible, at all, you'd have found verses quoted without the chapter and verse.

When you come into a group like this you have no idea the level of scholar you may be dealing with, and to dis someone because they haven't sufficiently fed you all the tender morsels of meat is more than a bit presumptuous.

I referred Jayne to another book becaue it is an excellent book with tons of research and documentation in it, and there's no way I can possibly do her justice in explaining the entire book on this website, or with the time I am willing to spend on this topic. Simple economics of time demands that I refer her to a superior source than my own writings, and that book is filled with an incredible amount of Biblical and historical references. Like I said in the preceeding message to her, it was a "nugget", I pointed her to.

I hope this helps

David
David -

You may sound good to some and to yourself with the scholarly references request and all that, but dude I have a B.A in theology and an accounting degree as well and I tell you what, I count those degrees as rubbish as Paul stated in the Epistle to the Philippians in comparison to the direct enlightenment from our Lord:

7 But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. 8 What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith. 10 I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead.
You quoted a bible verse that says: Jesus Himself said He did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

I will give you another one:

3 Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints.

Strong word - (CONTEND) - what I know about God I learned from God, not some school or web site with so called scholars.

John
25"All this I have spoken while still with you. 26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

The Holy Spirit will guide us to all truth when we seek him with a clean heart. I place no value on degrees or those that call upon them as their right to be right.

Sound doctrine - from the bible - not manmade teachings that confuse the young in Christ and tickle the ears of others.

You probably have not been challenge about your distorted beliefs here, that is all and use the scholarly card to sound and appear more profound but that is just a cover up to say…
you know what David – My Lord allows you to believe whatever you want, so I will leave it at that, but do not expect me to stand idle while you teach a lie.
Please read the word of god and stop getting brain washed by your so called scholars. Name me a few of them, I love to study and discuss these topics, so shoot Mr.

Oh but you are not interested because I am not naming my scholarly authorities huh? Oh man! Don’t get me wrong I will work on my Masters in divinity, my Lord willing soon, so I AM EXTREMLY AWARE OF THE VALUE OF AN EDUCATION, but I only bring that up in this type of context. My PERSONAL bible study time in the morning and throughout the day that builds me up.

I do care deeply about
alienated;

you may not be a christian yet but the Spirit of my Lord has blessed you with enough sense to detect false doctrine all ready.

Man you would be a great warrior for the kingdom of our Lord if you only repent and accept Christ as Lord and savior.

what is holding you back from it?

send me a message if you want to chat man.

i enjoyed reading what you wrote David.
David V., I would agree with you that your "degrees" of knowledge are not much more than "rubbish", but not for the same reasons as Paul quoted.

What I find disturbing about your "style" of communication is that it is completely devoid of substance. While you quote a few verses to further your line of reasoning, you fail to address the points I made to you. As you can see from my previous response, I cited precisely the definitions of Hell that were in question. The fact is, I was right, and am right, about the question of hell. You have been deluded into thinking it was something it never was. Your "theology" has prevented you from learning the Truth about many matters concerning the Kingodm of God, including even Life and Death itself.

People have been taught incorrectly about hell, and live in fear of something that is a PAGAN concept. Your inability to refute my factual post is indicative of your inability to reason out a matter, much less contend for the Faith. You'd have never made it in Berea.

Instead of humbly acknowledging the deception you've suffered, you resort to what is called an ad hominem attack. That is, you attack me personally for the information I've freely shared, and then you add to that a petty discourse of slander, and defamation of character. Those are crimes...and, you've demonstrated your prediliction for criminal behaviour.

You've been proven to have PAGAN beliefs, not Christian. You've been deluded by the darkness of "judeo-christian" beliefs, which are neither from God, Abraham, Moses, the Prophets, Jesus, or His Disciples, but rather from the pull-pit of modern day Theology. You've been lied to, and you clearly believe the lies with all your heart. The sophistry of seminarians and clever twisting and wordsmithing of the Greek and Hebrew texts by translators (there's an old saying, Translators are Traitors) has led countless millions astray. Your belief sets appear to be straight-line Pagano-Christian, as defined in the Encyclopedia of Christian Theology, by Jean-Yves Lacoste. You've evidently become drunken on the poisonous mixture of Babylonianism, Romanism, Catholicism, Paganism, and modern-day Theology, the cnacerous outgrowth of a thousand years of darkness.

I can see that you are very comfortable in your present predicament believing that you've found the light of the "gospel". However, I can assure you, you have not. Furthermore, you are unprepared to face what is coming on this land. You are one of the "sheeple", prepared for the slaughter. You've been led to believe the lie that that Bible is religious, it isn't. It's political...that's why other countries like China have steadfastly refused to allow it into their country. If people would read it as a political book, as a guide to understanding how governments work, and how law bind men to those governments, they just might find the freedom from they governments they've contracted themselves to. They might find the Kingdom of God that has eluded you. And, they might find the freedom that you've never enjoyed. And, they might learn to live as a man rather that a mere person (legal terms), since God is not a respector of persons (that is to say personas, as the word reads in the original Greek texts). Your persona is evidently all that matters to you, and keeping it afloat I'm sure is a full-time occupation.

Sadly David V., you've turned up your nose at the Good News of the Kingdom of God, the kingdom that Jesus came to declare 2000 years ago, and which has been in continuous existence since that time. The Kingdom of God is a political empire that stands separately from all the heathen nations on the earth. I suspect you are a card-carrying heathen, a member of a political entity that abhores the Kingdom of God, and the legal authority of King Jesus. No man can serve two masters, David V., and if you are carrying the ID of a foreign nation from Christ, you are none of His.

You apparently live in opposition to the Kingdom of God, and the Lordship of King Jesus preferring to spread the lie that one can only enter into the kingdom AFTER they physically die. How sad. Jesus is still on the Cross suffering for your lack of wisdom and discernment, even though a messenger has come to you and explained the Kingdom of God to you. Out of hand, you've rejected it. Your pride has been your fall. Unless you repent (turn around, seek the kingdom of God rather than the kingdoms of fallen men), you'll hear the fateful words of Jesus, when He says, Get away from Me, I never knew you. You've drawn near to Him with your lips, but your heart is far far from Him. And, in that case, you better hope that I am wrong about the Biblical meaning of the word Hell.

What "Alienated" needs is to hear the Truth, not a perpetuation of Myths, misunderstandings, misinterpretations, false doctrines and false dogma.

He sounds quite depressed, and many others are in the world, as well. The answers he needs to find are in the Bible, not in preconceived Theological precepts founded upon the smokey altar of "judeo-christian"-Pagan, lies. What he needs is to have straight talk, not fluff. He needs to be shown a way out of the mess he's found himself in. He certainly does NOT need anymore smoke blown up his shorts by well-meaning, but nevertheless ignorant, sheeple.

I hope this helps.

There are manifold Blessings in Christ,
David
David,
I spend the time to read all you shared above and I appreciate the fact that you are free to believe what you want to believe, because God allows his creation such freedom. I do not ever want to be offensive, but in this case and in view of your distorted view of scripture, some of my statements may be offensive to you. Please understand that this is not a personal attack to you, I do not know you. I do feel bad that you state that you have spend 15 years studying such topics and yet lack the correct understanding of God's word.

From what you have shared I would think you hold Universalist beliefs. Which have been deemed heresy by the Orthodox Church.

The views you shared may sounds extremely reviling to those who do not have a grasp of ecclesiastical history, but to anyone with some back ground in the subject it is easy to pick out the discrepancies and the numerous unreliable sources and distorted views you are calling attention to back up his false doctrine.

The claims of many writers to show how Christianity has been influence by pagan and Greek philosophy is preposterous to say the least.

How can one ignore the reality of Hell and use one of God's attributes to do so (love) when no other than Jesus spoke more about hell than anyone else. The original Greek and Hebrew back up the Arminian and Calvinist believes of hell, for it is biblical. The statement that the early church fathers believed in Universal salvation is a HUMONGOUS LIE. NO SUCH BLAPHEMY HAS BEEN BELIEVED BY ANY REAL CHURCH FATHER.

Do I sound mad or angry with my response; yeah I am a little upset at such horrible interpretations of God’s revealed character and word. Again am not angry at you, for you have obviously been fooled by the teachers of this false doctrine and you think you are serving God in sharing such a lie, but like Paul persecuted the church, believing he was serving God, so are you distorting sound doctrine, thinking you are serving God.

The arguments about universal salvations are founded in disbelieve that a loving God will send people to hell.

This erroneous heresy is completely oblivious to God's Holiness and justice and only sees a Good loving God, according to the propaganda of the doctrine.
This is the worst kind of evil. To teach something that the bible does not teach.
The statement below is a perfect example of the ignorance of biblical doctrine being taught by the Universalist.

HOW MEN ARE SAVED
It is estimated that about one hundred and sixty billions of human beings have lived on the earth in the six thousand years since Adam departed from Eden. Of these, the very broadest estimate that could be made with reason would be that less than five billion were saints of God. This broad estimate would leave the immense aggregate of one hundred and fifty-five billions (155,000,000,000) who went down into death without faith and hope in the only name given under heaven or among men whereby we must be saved. Indeed, the vast majority of these never knew or heard of Jesus, and could not believe in Him of whom they had not heard. What, I ask, has become of this vast multitude, of which figures give a wholly inadequate idea? What is, and is to be, their condition? Did God make no provision for these, whose condition and circumstances He must have foreseen? Or did He, from the foundation of the world, make a wretched and merciless provision for their hopeless, eternal torment, as many of His children claim? To these questions, which every thinking Christian asks himself, and yearns to see answered truthfully, and in harmony with the character of God, comes a variety of answers:-

The above statements are so boldly showing the immense ignorance of those teaching such a lie that it’s extremely easy to debunk such foolishness. The bible clearly teaches in Romans Chapter 1 and 2 how God deals with men in different times in different ways. God is just and He will not send anyone to hell who never heard of his son, he deals them according to their conscience and not according to the Gospel. Those who do what is right according to the light God has provided to them in a specific time and space are his and those who boldly go against his enlighten, whether such enlightenment is through the word, the written law or the law of the conscience will be punished.
GOD IS NOT ONLY LOVE NOR Does THAT LOVE TRUMP ALL THE OTHER ATTRIBUTES HE POSSESES. HE IS HOLY, HOLY, HOLY AND HATES SIN ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE AND HE IS JUST AND WILL ALLOW HUMANITY TO BE ETERNALLY SEPERATED FROM HIM IS HE SO WISHES.
PICK UP THE BIBLE AND READ IT ASKING GOD TO LEAD YOU TO ALL TRUTH. IGNORE WHAT ALL MEN ARE SAYING ABOUT THE WORD (EVEN WHAT I HAVE STATED) AND GET IN THE WORD YOUR SELF. ASKED GOD TO GUIDE YOU AND TO TEACH YOU BY THE SPIRIT WHAT TRUTH IS AND NOT WHAT TRUTH IS ACCORDING TO SO AND SO... AND THEN GET BACK TO M E AND TELL ME HOW MEN ARE SAVED AND IF HELL IS REAL OR NOT, NOT ACCORDING TO A FEEL GOOD GOSPEL THAT TICKLES THE EARS OF SOME LISTENIG SUCH AS THE HERESY OF UNIVERSAL SALVATION.
I PRAY YOU ARE WISE ENOUGH AND MAN ENOUGH TO TAKE THE CHALLENGE OF LEAVING BEHIND THE TEAHCINGS OF MEN AND SEEK GOD IN THESE MATTERS.
IF YOU LIKE- WE CAN GO THROUGH EACH VERSE BACKING UP YOUR BELIEVE SYSTEM AND WE THEN WILL SEE WHAT THE BIBLE REALY TEACHES. MOST OF THE THINGS YOU SHARED ARE NOT BACK UP BY SCRIPTURE, RATHER THEY ARE BACK UP BY EMOTIONS AND UNBELIEVE THAT A HOLY, JUST AND LOVING GOD CAN ALLOW PEOPLE TO BE APART FROM HIM. HE HIMSELF SAID THAT HELL WAS PREPARED FOR THE FALLEN ANGELS BUT IF MEN WANT TO GO THERE INSTEAD OF REPENTING OF THEIR SINS AND ACCEPTING CHRIST AS LORD AND SAVIOR THEN THEY CAN GO THERE.

GOD BLESS YOU AND MAY YOU GET AN UNQUENCHABLE HUNGER TO READ GOD'S WORD

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