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I have several gay family members. And I try to voice my thoughts about this.I think that it is a sin,that it is wrong and it wasnt part of God's plan for us. Am I wrong?
Where do I find where GOD talks about gays and where he destroyed Sodem and Gamora? I do not know my bible quite well yet, I am still reading and learning.
Thank you,
Chelle

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Gary... sin is sin.. but this post is about one particular sin, and that is that of homosexuality. Jesus came to deliver us from sin, and the effects thereof, if we choose to hold onto our sin, and refuse to confess it as such...what hope is there for us?

What else can God to to bring salvation, than he has already done, the rest is up to us, to turn from our sin, and accept God forgiveness, and to seek his power to overcome the sin that has its grip on us.

How much plainer could it get?
Chelle, when dealing with your relatives about this, please let them know that God loves them very much, and that he cares about what condition their soul is in, that he gave his only son, so that they might be saved, and then share scripture with them, If they choose to argue about it, do not get caught up into this, just tell them the truth in love, and leave it at that, refuse to argue, as Gods word tells us not to, and refuse to condemn, just tell them the truth in love, and let the Holy Spirit take it from there, it is his job to bring conviction, once they have heard the truth or the word, which is truth.

God be with you..

And pray, before trying to talk with them, asking God to give you the right spirit, and the right words, asking him to use you, and to speak to them, thru you.
I believe you are not wrong because if God wanted men to marry themselves He would not have created women.
So you are perfectly right.
Gayla, yes, "sin is sin."

I believe that would be Aristotles law of identity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_identity).

However, not all people agree on what is and what isn't sin.

I was just pointing out that there are a number of Christians who don't consider sexual orientation a matter of sin. It is the present day majority position and it is that historically as well.

But what get's socially stigmatized as sinful by various Christian communities varies by community and seems to vary over time.

For instance, gluttony gets at more biblical emphasis across a higher number of passages across a higher number of authors. Gluttony, historically within the church, has even gotten more emphasis, It was even identified as one of the seven deadly sins. Where presently in an age, where we are living compromised quality of life, even dying, in large numbers, due to our gluttonous modern lifestyles.

In contrast are the seven heavenly virtures--faith, hope, charity, fortitude, justice, temperance, and prudence.

I wonder if we could trust the light to shine into the darkness.

Sure seems, at least to me, that a bit of love, joy, peace, patience, goodness, faithfulness and self-control might go a long ways.

Adolf, also, I'm struggling making sense of the logic behind your statement.
Gary,

You said: "However, not all people agree on what is and what isn't sin"

Not all people agree on what is sin, because they built their lives on philosophies, traditions and the word of God, I am referring to Christians of course. When one builds on absolute truth and Christian ethics a lone, then we can all agree on what is sin. We cannot build using societies morals, which change according to what is acceptable for the masses at a given time and place in History. However we do no such thing, we are called to build on the Rock, upon the foundation set by the Apostles.

Relativism has been creeping in, even into church theology.

Ephesians 4 states that "... the body of Christ may be built up 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
Every single verse in the bible has only one meaning when kept in context, it can have multiple applications but one meaning alone.

Blessings
Yes, relativism is like when one thinks it used to be a sin not to eat kosher, but now it's OK to have a cheeseburger.

Relativism is like when one thinks slavery used to be OK, but now it's a sin.

Relativism is like when one thinks multiple wives was OK in the age of the patriarchs but now one man/one woman is the Biblical definition of marriage.

Relativism is like when one generation believes in a historic understanding of the resurrection of the body and then another generation believes in the rapture.

Relativism is when one picks verses from Leviticus about homosexuality but don't pick verses about wearing fabrics of mixed clothes.

Relativism is when one ignores verses in Paul's writings about when keeping silent in the church but yet love and follow the passage next to it but, somehow, consider them both divinely inspired.

Relativism is when one denomination practices infant baptism and another believes in adult baptism.

Relativism is when one preacher says the Holy Spirit is saying this about an issue or subject and another preacher says the Holy Spirit is saying that and this and that aren't the same or complementary.

Philosophies, traditions, etc.

You're spot on right.

By, the way, that "every single verse in the bible has only one meaning" is one of many exegetical methods. I would think over the years, very few biblical scholars and theologians (or even believers at the popular level) have actually held that position exclusively.

There's a whole lot of poetry in the bible and generally, across languages, cultures, etc. "one meaning only" is not a characteristic of poetry.

Poets love to use metaphors, allusions, double meanings, etc. Even Jesus loved to use parables.
Gary –

You make good logical points from a natural perspective, but not a spiritual one, and please do not be offended by my statement, for I do not know your heart, which only God truly knows, but all I have to go on is what you write. What you write shows an analytical person who is seeks the truth, but we are dealing with Spiritual matters where we cannot rely on our own understanding alone. We must depend on Spiritual enlightenment as scripture teaches.

1 Corinthians 2
10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.
13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy[d] Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

I placed those verses here to say that thought we do not ignore all the world has to offer as far as wisdom goes; we do not fail to understand that we are dealing with Spiritual matters, which require Godly wisdom, which the world falls extremely short of.

I suppose a short definition of Relativism will be timely here, from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relativism

Relativism is the idea that some elements or aspects of experience or culture are relative to, i.e., dependent on, other elements or aspects.Common statements that might be considered relativistic include:
"That's true for you but not for me." "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder." "You can't judge other cultures by the standards of your own."
Some relativists claim that humans can understand and evaluate beliefs and behaviors only in terms of their historical or cultural context. There are many forms of relativism which vary in their degree of controversy.[1] The term often refers to truth relativism, which is the doctrine that there are no absolute truths, i.e., that truth is always relative to some particular frame of reference, such as a language or a culture. Another widespread and contentious form is moral relativism.


All the examples you quoted as relativism are not at all relativism.

You wrote: Yes, relativism is like when one thinks it used to be a sin not to eat kosher, but now it's OK to have a cheeseburger.

No, that is not relativism that is simply new and Old Testament commandments.

Relativism is like when one thinks slavery used to be OK, but now it's a sin.

Slavery has never been ok and those that practiced it were not living in the freedom the word of God teaches for all mankind to live in. Even if Christians were doing it, it does not make it right, hence it was fought against and the truth prevailed.

Relativism is like when one thinks multiple wives was OK in the age of the patriarchs but now one man/one woman is the Biblical definition of marriage.

Nope – God has never been ok with it, but the bible does not hide the sins of the servents of the Lord or the consequences of those sins. One man and a woman has been the Biblical definition of Marriage from the Garden of Eden until today.

Relativism is like when one generation believes in a historic understanding of the resurrection of the body and then another generation believes in the rapture.

Ahhhh no discrepancies on believing on both events. And that is not relativism, but simply differences in doctrinal matters, in secondary issues at that, but not relativism.

Relativism is when one picks verses from Leviticus about homosexuality but don't pick verses about wearing fabrics of mixed clothes.

Nope, that is simply the fact that sin continues to be sin and wearing fabrics of mixed clothes which fall into levitical laws and ceremonial laws are no longer applicable under the new convenent of Grace, but the Mosaic law or the moral laws remain applicable to today.

Relativism is when one ignores verses in Paul's writings about when keeping silent in the church but yet love and follow the passage next to it but, somehow, consider them both divinely inspired.

Don’t know exactly which verses you are referring to (maybe the ones about woman keeping silent?) but regardless of which ones are in your mind, I can assure you that they are not relativism. For relativisms as the definition above explains it has no part in Biblical wisdom, where absolute truth prevails. So, Nope, that is again differences within the church as to biblical practices and interpretation differences, but not relativism.

Relativism is when one preacher says the Holy Spirit is saying this about an issue or subject and another preacher says the Holy Spirit is saying that and this and that aren't the same or complementary.

Again, I found it wise to include here the common definition of Relativism from a source (wikipedia ) that is not Christian and has nothing to grind with any camp, so we could see what the definition of the word is and what you keep describing as relativism, is again differences in Hermeneutics.

You said: By, the way, that "every single verse in the bible has only one meaning" is one of many exegetical methods.

Exegesis (from the Greek ἐξηγεῖσθαι 'to lead out') is a critical explanation or interpretation of a text, especially a religious text.

No beloved Gary is not one of many exegetical methods, but what the bible teaches as I quoted scripture when I mentioned it and not a theological school of thought. That scripture I quoted from Ephesians 4 is simple, not complicated to understand. You are right that some liberal theologians that want to tickle the ears of the masses and justify their sin do make it to be one way of exegesis, but is not, is the biblical truth.

The poetical books of the bible are the following: Job, Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, and Song of Solomon. So yes friend there is a lot of poetry in the bible. But we are not to compare Godly wisdom or Godly literature with worldly wisdom or literature. The bible is the bible because it stands alone as the Word of God, unlike any other, so the others writings maybe left up to each individuals private interpretation but not the word of God. We do not serve a God who authors confusion. Our God is a God of order, but we are finite hence make a mess of things, but our responsibility is to go to the author and asked that His Spirit guides us to all truth and not to our own understanding.

I pray you prayfully considered this post. Love you in Christ and please know that you are appreciated and welcome for sharing your thoughts.
David,

I prayerfully considered your thoughts.

In like measure, would you also prayerfully consider that the Holy Spirit may need to speak into your life as well.

Is it possible you and your crowd are guilty of ear ticklings?

Or do you think that you are above that?

Is your heart broken and contrite?

Do you ever behold beauty from your own eye, or are you indeed the one with God's perspective?
Hey Gary,

I have prayerfully considered everything you have share for many years. I have been in both sides of the fence on the majority of secondary Christian doctrines and it has taken for some theological issues, to be set in my heart, almost my entire Christian life.

I have come to embrace and to be at peace with what my beliefs are mainly because by God's Grace and to His Glory, I have tried to look at every issue from every conceivable angle, always open to learn (knowing that I do not know it all, not even close) always asking my Lord to help me be true to Him and not some theologian's interpretation of scripture. It is joyful work for me, but work none the less, work that I have committed my life to do. Not to win theological arguments or be right for the sake of being right.

No my dear friend, I have made it my life's work because I can do no other in view of the surpassing beauty of my Lord and the mercy He has shown to me, a wretched sinner who was heading to eternal destruction, now saved by His Grace through faith in Christ and not my abilities to perceive or understand Spiritual matters. With my conscious clear before men and God, I can honestly tell you that I seek to only teach the truth.

John 8:31-32 (New International Version)

31To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.

1. If you hold to word/teaching - condition

What does it make you?
2. You are really my disciples.

What will happen then?
You will know the truth what truth? The truth about everything pertaining to God and Godliness.

And then what happens?
3. The truth will set you free.

Free from what? From everything that wants to keep you down and enslaved.

Is it possible you and your crowd are guilty of ear tickling?

Me and my crowd are persecuted for our beliefs, laugh at by a world that yells out Tolerance and Relativism, Yet we continue to hope and pray for them and we will not force our beliefs on anyone, for we know it is God who changes the heart of men, but we will not turn back from preaching biblical truths either.

Or do you think that you are above that?
I am not beyond correction or biblical authority and no one should be, but by God's grace I am above tickling the ears. I do fear God and do not wish to come before Him to hear him say, "I never knew you." those that tickle the ear do it for multiple reasons of which none are to give God the Glory. I seek only His Glory.


Is your heart broken and contrite?

Yes friend it is, for the sins I still commit (not habitual sins) and for those that are perishing.

Do you ever behold beauty from your own eye, or are you indeed the one with God's perspective?

Beholding beauty is one of the many ways we are created in the image of God, not only beholding it, but creating it. As the people of God we have the ability to turn things around for God's glory, hence creating a beautiful situation out of something that has gone or will go sower. Our God never ceases to blow our minds with His creative ways and has given us the ability to create art of all kinds, which delight our senses. So yes, hahahaha indeed, I behold beauty.

Oh no Gary, I am by far the only one with God's perspective, I am yet but a student of the word and by God's grace I am surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses that goes way back to Abel, (Hebrews 12), of whom I learn. I also am with good company in this age. In this community there are beautiful men and women of God, too many too name here, haha I fear I may forget to mention one, so I will not list them by name. I am not the only one with God’s perspective, God has taken care of His truth and by His grace many still preach it.

God has guided you to a good place; a place where we do not seek to be right for the sake of being right, nor anyone here is interested on your worldly belongings. I may never meet you in this life and have nothing to gain but a friend and brother in you and that is all I and others here seek.

Grace and peace to you friend.
I respect what you said and thought it worth saying that I do.

Very thoughtful.

Whether or not "being gay is a sin" isn't really for me to judge.

If another person is deep into yet another foray's worth of homosexuality or deep into yet another cheeseburger's worth of gluttony, how should it really affect how I treat them?

What would indeed Jesus do?

What would indeed the religious powers-that-be think of it?

I don't have all the answers.

But... I do indeed see you are a sojourner on a journey and I would hope you to see me as one too.

Your closing comment reminds me of the benediction of my personal daily prayers.

It goes:

The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with us all, ever more.

Now...

Hopefully we Christians can have Christ's love more for the homosexual community than we can have Satan's lust for yet another drive-thru order.
Gary,

Thank you for your kind words. It is obvious to me that you have spent a great part of your life studying and I can understand, appreciate and respect that as well. I will be presumptuous here and go out on a limb, something I seldom do because it is not something I like doing. I rather asked individuals questions and go from there.

I too have spent my life studying all subjects. I will not go into details about it now, but I do bring that up because as you, I have also taken the time to study all sorts of documents. I have even study the Satanic Bible, not yet in its entirely, but close to it.

Here is my assumption from the many posts that you have made around this community: It seems that you have chosen to take from many faiths, religions and belief systems, what you believe to be profitable and apply it to your philosophy of what truth is.

If that is the case, then that is where we differed greatly. I have study philosophies (with an open mind), teachings (Islam, Hinduism, Jehovah’s Witness, LDS etc…) traditions etc, but they have only done one thing for me. They have confirmed the supremacy and beauty of Scriptures as the Only way to truth and enlightenment.

The only Way. No other foundation can be set apart from the one set by Jesus Christ.

Only the God of the bible is God to me after all my seeking and learning. Only His word is authority (Sola Scriptura) and I believe in its inerrancy in its original languages and the ability of God to preserve it throughout the ages in its different translations/versions as well.

The world looks at my previous statement, that Jesus is the only way, as arrogant and intolerable intolerance to tolerance. Against all logic we are told today that all views regarding religion are right. Even if they contradict each other enormously. Through the media and the academic world the view that all religions lead to God has become the view of the majority. To stand and proclaim that Christ alone is the way is to be close minded and anti intellectualism. Pluralism does nothing for the human condition which only the word of God deals with in depths that only the true creator of our souls could know us.

The final analysis is that none of us are righteous on our own; we are fully depraved and full of pride without Christ. Only Christ is the answer to such a condition. Only His effectual calling can cure the sickness of humanity. Only His word has the power to renew the mind and nothing else. The word of God is hated by those who seek righteousness within themselves or to rest on illogical foundations of relativism, existentialism and all the other “isms” out there apart from the Gospel of Christ.

The word of God forces people to an opinion (an absolute opinion). All the man made systems only prove how ignorant we can be. They come crumbling down in light of scripture.

1 Kings 18:21
And Elijah came to all the people, and said, “How long will you falter between two opinions? If the LORD is God, follow Him; but if Baal, follow him.” But the people answered him not a word.


The true Gospel is exclusive. We cannot mash it as one more truth out there.
I could go on and on and on…. But I will stop here for now and say the following:

You say: Whether or not "being gay is a sin" isn't really for me to judge.

Hahahaha you sound like a politician man. On the fence, so I can get both votes and not offend anyone, well, here is our major difference. Being gay is a sin period dot dot. Why? Because I say so, no, no, no may it never be, because the Word of God says it as plain as day light. Unless you are a gay person (not talking about you here) trying to justify the sin, there is no way around it.

,”how should it really affect how I treat them?” Good question.

2 Corinthians 5:18 (New International Version)
18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation:

We love them and through prayer and exhortation try to make them see their error. After all: 2 Timothy 3: 16.....All scripure is God breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17......so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every GOOD work. Then on down 2 Timothy 4: 2 it reads.......Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage--with great patience and careful instruction. I love the word of God, it has an answer for every scenario.

What Jesus would do, you asked.

Well, what we see him do throughout the Gospels, lovingly correct the humble and very sternly corrects the proud. So He would correct the gay person or gluttonous person depending on their heart condition. He may softly and humbly speak to them or grab a whip.

You said:/b>u> I don't have all the answers.

Well, neither do I or anyone a live for that matter. The beautiful thing is that I do know who has All the Answers –  Glory! Yes! I get excited and I just can hide it, I am about to lose control and I think I like it… ooohhhpppsss sorry got a little too excited there hahaha God’s word is just Awesome Gary. Not trying to clown Gary, the beauty of the word of God just brings Joy to my heart that is all.

Ohhh how I wish that all men would taste and see how good He is.

I do see you as a sojourner in a journey, that is why I take the time to respond to you. Because you matter. You are someone who the Spirit of God has guided here and with all my casual attitude aside, I know He has guided you here not to be offended, but to be loved and to be told the truth.

WHAT YOU DO WITH THE TRUTH IS UP TO YOU.

MY LORD BLESS YOU.
David, thanks for sharing all that.

I'm not offended.

But I'm not that interested in being a homophobe either. :-)

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