All About GOD - Growing Relationships with Jesus and Others
S.O.A.P. #5
Greetings all,
I will continue to try something on TheNET. I would like to see if we can engage in a Bible study using the forums. I hope to simulate a small group setting, but realize that there will be lag time. Here are the parameters that we will work with ... and this is open to everyone.
1) We are attempting to work our way through the gospel of John.
2) We will not tolerate negative comments made about a person or persons.
3) We are using the S.O.A.P. approach which = Scripture - Observation - Application - Prayer.
... 3a) Scripture text from the Gospel of John using KJV (no copyright attached)
... 3b)Observations about the particular text. What is being said, what is going on, who is involved and what might be the points being made?
... 3c) Application of the text/teaching to our lives today.
... 3d) Prayer pertaining to that which we have sought to discern.
4) It is appropriate to ask questions along the way.
5) I operating as the facilitator and teacher of this online group/class, but want the open participation of others.
6) At the end of each week (Friday's) I will close the current one and start a new one.
This weeks discussion:
John 3:1-9 KJV There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: (2) The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. (3) Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. (4) Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? (5) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (6) That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (7) Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. (8) The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. (9) Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Richard L. Broch, Sr. on
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LT,
This is a great passage.......with my favorite part - verse 3.
I hear the Lord saying something like: All humans are born into sin (because the curse in the Garden of Eden).We grow into the age of reason up to the moment of truth. If we don't change, we are like "the walking dead".....living lives of sin......on a dead-end cul-de-sac......in darkness.
But, if we come to God through Jesus Christ.....it's the same as being born again....from death to life......with the promise of eternal life in heaven.
And included in Jesus's statement is THAT IT IS THE ONLY WAY TO REDEMPTION.
Nicodemus had a problem understanding the Word......just as people have for the last 2000 years or so.
But, when a person gets the word from the Holy Spirit..... as Peter preached in Acts 2:38 - Truly Repents, Is Baptized, Whose live is changed 180 degrees (Born Again), shows a new person as he/she is sanctified to a new different life.
It's great!
Amen.
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Permalink Reply by Amanda on
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I've always liked the description Jesus uses saying the new birth is as mysterious as the wind but just as real and with real effects that can be seen and felt and heard in the life of the believer.
Yet, there's a problem with how being born again and staying born again is often taught.
IMO, anytime our own works are attributed in making it happen or making it continue to exist, is heresy, including the teaching to follow certain steps, especially being baptized.
Like the wind, there are no steps to follow. The wind just happens where it happens.
Of course, it's the power and the working of God that makes it happen, and some things can be pinpointed in the process of it happening, such as hearing the message of faith, believing and repenting and confessing.
Then, the teaching of baptism is listed as a step as well in the process by some, but even when the works to be saved are called obeying instead of meriting, it's very dangerous ground IMO.
The wind happens mysteriously, and so does being born again.
How can we ever claim there are steps to follow that will make it happen? I don't understand that. Nor do I understand how bad works might cause spiritual death after it happens.
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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on
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Yep, it is a struggle, especially on top of all else we are told in Scripture that wolves will come in with false teaching. I believe that one of the goals of the enemy is to sow seeds of doubt. In last Sunday's message I commented on how those who oppose Christianity can use things like the papyrus that proclaims Jesus had a wife or get people to think the church some how deceitfully kept out the writings know and the gospel of Judas or the gospel of Thomas that some people will fall away from the church. Every new attack will shake the church and some more will walk away, but did the true child of God walk away? I think not, but only those who practiced religion.
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Actually, I find it difficult myself to not just walk away from the organized church system as a whole, even while knowing that some groups really are part of the Body. I know I won't stop believing, nor do I want to stop believing in God. Yet, it almost always never fails that at some point in every group, someone leading and teaching will suggest why others don't qualify for heaven, as if anyone ever could qualify, and, they, themselves, do. (Not aiming at you or anyone in leadership on AAG -- as you've always stressed the godly order found in Eph 2:8-10, where works follow being born again but don't cause or keep one spiritually alive.)
It makes no sense that God will send people to hell who believe in Him but who failed to overcome sin. Choosing His will over our will makes life so much better for everyone concerned, but how does it become twisted into the belief that it is our works that will enable us to enter into Heaven?
As a friend of mine told me, It is 100% the work of Christ. Why do people try so hard to take some of the credit?
I'm so weary of feeling like others are good enough but I'm not. So, yes, walking away, altogether, from church is a big temptation. I know God forgives self-righteousness, as well, and I want to think that not all people battling self righteousness aren't really born again. I was saved at a young age, fully, and, yet, have battled legalism for nearly three decades now.
I'm trying to give those who push works the benefit of the doubt by saying I don't think it has to mean they've fallen from grace when they are working for their salvation. Maybe it's only that they might not be relating to God by grace, out of not knowing the whole truth. After all, I'm not to say, either, that others must qualify for heaven, and self righteousness will block them out.
We've discussed before that we don't have to have all our doctrine right to be born again.
But in this article, it is called heresy.
http://carm.org/questions/about-doctrine/what-relationship-between-...
The true believer hates sin and longs to overcome it.
It upsets me also that when I mention I belong to God only because of faith and the work of Christ, then it gets called misleading people into a license to sin, as if it means those trusting and resting in Christ love their sin. That just isn't true. PERIOD.
My faith becomes very weak. I know faith is what is needed to not walk away. I must trust God for faith, too.
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From C.S. Lewis:
"When a man is getting better he understands more and more clearly the evil that is still left in him. When a man is getting worse, he understands his own badness less and less. A moderately bad man knows he is not very good: a thoroughly bad man thinks he is all right. This is common sense, really ... You can see mistakes in arithmetic when your mind is working properly: while you are making them you cannot see them ... Good people know about both good and evil: bad people do not know about either.” (Mere Christianity, page 88)
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You are probably not going like my answer, but I will share it anyway. There are two things I will point out.
1) You give people way too much control over your life. Why do you care what people you don't know or barely know think? This includes going to a new church. You have to test the church to see if they are in the faith before you would allow yourself to be held accountable to that group. If you find them in error on essentials you move on to another church until you find a solid one (not perfect, but solid).
2) The Bible describes us as sheep for a reason and makes a couple of other comments. The first thing we know about sheep is that they do not do well on their own. They are easy prey and easily fooled. Sheep are at their best in a group under a shepherd who looks after them. The Bible also tells us that wolves will come in to some sheep pens. If you go to a church that is full of wolves you move on. If you were a part of a church and wolves tried to come in you toss them out. We also know that false teachers will infiltrate the church and lead many astray. Again if you started to attend a church and found it is led by false teachers you move on. You are still the outsider as the newbie and they are probably entrenched. If you were a part of a church and false teachers sought to infiltrate you fight to keep them out and pure doctrine in.
I recognize you are not saying you are giving up on church, but your emphasis needed addressing. Sheep are unsafe alone (unless God called them to a specific ministry) and the church needs to works at keeping pure doctrine in and false teachers and wolves out. If one is not in a church currently they need to seek out a fellowship to belong to ... that is God's design and we must not let the enemy win the day by giving up or giving in.
Lord Bless,
LT
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I'm not sure exactly why I let others control me, or why I care what they think, but, at the root of it, most likely there are some falsehoods I believe that enable it. Yet, most of the time it seems to just happen to me unwittingly. I think maybe I want others to behave in certain ways so that I can be happy, feel safe and secure, which is pretty selfish, but also makes me dependent upon others for my happiness and well being :(
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The beginning of breaking this cycle is the acknowledgement that it exist. Then a simple principle needs to be added as a tool to help overcome the cycle.
Stop - put the breaks on the situation
Step back - don't let the mind run ahead
Pray - ask the Lord for wisdom regarding this one situation
Evaluate - Look at it from a big picture view and not as "the EVENT"
Pray for release of this one situation (each time) - Seeking a road map around the roadblock
Lord Bless,
LT
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When something upsetting is happening, I do find myself praying, asking for help and strength, but I can't seem to manage to stop my thoughts from racing, or panicking.
Psychology teaches that it's natural to process unsettling situations, even traumatic events, in such a way as to be able to get over them and go on with life. It generally takes time but happens naturally, unless something inhibits this natural process.
Just the mention of the word psychology often brings a negative judgment from some people, but I'm using it to explain something.
Our brains are programmed, designed, to process and store memories of upsetting incidents so that those events become part of the big picture of our lives instead of just "the EVENT" that stands alone, as you have aptly stated.
This makes life tenable.
We feel able to handle new things as they happen.
But --
Now, for the transition.
If something happened that wasn't properly processed and handled and is stored in the memory in that manner, instead, then big problems.
Maybe a person doesn't get the needed help at the time of the event, or for whatever the reason, then the event isn't put into the right perspective.
I hope I'm making sense.
Anyway, for me, it's like I'm having repeated incidents that are small, and, yet, are affecting me as if they are huge.
I know I overreact, and isolating myself is an overreaction.
But underneath it all is the original EVENT, with all of its pain and thoughts and memories, and the little things are like a minefield and when a mine blasts off, then the whole thing gets triggered.
It's like that for me with church. Not only with church but church and being born again is all I want to talk about in this discussion, to stay on topic. I know this is really a bible study, and maybe I shouldn't say anything at all, but all the past experiences with church are flooding into my present. I can't seem to help but overreact to any current church situation.
I think what bothers me most about church is feeling like I don't know what a good church experience is. Even in childhood, my parents attended a holiness church that preached hellfire and damnation, losing salvation, backsliding down into the pit of hell, etc ...
So I have nothing to compare with what I've always experienced, which is laboring to stay saved, fearing punishment, trying to do and be better, etc ... If that makes sense.
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Basically what you have described is the view of Theophostic, which we have discussed before. Without going into all of it I will highlight 2 points.
1) Lie based Theology: Somewhere in our past a lie gets embedded as the truth and then affects our today and future. One such common lie is "it was your fault" and the person embraces that lie disabling them from healing.
2) Finding the root cause: Problems of like nature tend to recur in our lives until we find the root cause in our past. Too often we blame a secondary event (one that is attached to the root, but not the root itself). Until light is shown on the root and the lie attached dispelled many people remain in bondage.
There are two things I would add to what you have said (and not saying this of you).
1) There is a difference between processing and dwelling on the past.
2) We also must really want to let go of the past. Too often people feel safer holding on to the familiar even when the familiar is negative.
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If dwelling on the past means living in the past and not focusing at all on the present, then it doesn't apply to me because I'm doing my best to cope in the present and focus on the here and now. If it means reflecting upon what happened and thinking about it often but only because of "flooding" then that's me -- I'm dwelling. But I don't know how to stop those flood gates.
You beat me to the punch this morning. I was going to sign on to delete the "psychology" comment, thinking that I'm always too self-focused.
Recently, I learned that I have viewed God too much in human terms, and, also, that the most common type of fear in people is said to come from having been raised in a fearful home where fear was the lifestyle and they learned that the world is a threatening place. Church and God both were a part of that fearful picture very early on, for me. :'( -
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