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LORDSHIP SALVATION

Biblical or Heretical?

By William Webster


The past 20 years has seen an ongoing debate within the evangelical community on the issue of lordship salvation. There have been a number of works published addressing the subject but there is still much confusion within the evangelical Church concerning this issue. 
     There is much contradictory opinion as to what is necessary for an individual to come into the experience of salvation. On the one hand there are those who believe that lordship is absolutely essential while others deem such teaching a works salvation. No one involved in the controversy denies the essential truth of the deity of Christ, that he is Lord and God. In this sense it is impossible to ‘make Christ Lord’ since he is Lord. The controversy is not over the essential nature of Christ, but whether submission to him, as Lord of one’s life, is a necessary aspect of saving faith. There are those who claim that lordship is a betrayal of the Reformation in that it undermines the vital reformation principle of ‘faith alone’. And there are those who state that rather than a betrayal, the teaching of lordship is, in fact, an affirmation of both the biblical gospel and the historic Protestant faith. There is even confusion among those who consider themselves ‘reformed’ in theology. While we all agree that justification is by faith alone, we do not all agree on the meaning of saving faith. How do we resolve these differences?
     I believe the answer is found in clarifying the discipleship teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ. The teaching of Jesus is particularly germain to this whole controversy and is ultimately the definitive answer to the question of lordship. If he taught it, that settles it. The controversy over lordship is not an academic issue. It hits right at the heart of the gospel and the meaning of true salvation. Nothing less than the eternal destiny of men and women is at stake. When teaching on salvation Jesus has a great deal to say about hell, the kingdom of God, his atonement, union with himself, conversion, faith, repentance, sanctification and discipleship. Surprisingly, he has little to say about justification. In the context of Protestant–Roman Catholic ecumenism, Harold O.J. Brown recently made an interesting observation about the teaching of Christ. Referring to liberal Protestants and Catholics he states:

It is true that they have reduced the old hostility between the confessions, but unfortunately, in order to hold them, as both of these groups...do, one has to ignore some of the most explicit teachings of Jesus Himself (Harold O.J. Brown, Unhelpful Antagonism and Unhealthy Courtesy. Found in Roman Catholicism: Evangelical Protestants Analyze What Divides and What Unites Us (Chicago: Moody, 1994), John Armstrong, Ed., p. 169).

These comments apply to our present study. In order to hold our personal or denominational views on salvation, do we ignore or reinterpret some of the teachings of Jesus? 
In any study of Jesus’ teaching on salvation what is striking is his constant focus upon himself as the source of salvation. ‘Come to me, follow me, believe in me, drink of me’ (Mt. 11:28–30; Mk. 8:34–38; Jn. 6:35; Jn. 7:38) are his constant cries. He says, ‘I am the way the truth and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me’ (Jn. 14:6). According to Jesus, it is through a personal relationship with him that one comes into the experience of salvation. 
     He preaches the absolute necessity for the new birth (Jn. 3:3–6), for conversion (Mt. 18:3) and for sanctification (Mt. 7:21–24). He tells men that it is only those who do the will of God who will enter the kingdom of heaven, that those who truly belong to him will manifest the reality of that relationship by bearing the fruit of obedience in their lives (Jn. 15:1–8; 8:31).
     He says that none can come to him except the Father first draw them (Jn. 6:44) and yet he calls men to repentance and faith (Mk. 1:15; Jn. 3:16; Lk. 13:3; Jn. 4:15–18). 
     He teaches that justification is not by works but based solely on the mercy of God (Lk. 18:9–14). He emphasizes faith in himself and his atoning work as the sole basis for salvation and complete deliverance from judgment and condemnation (Jn. 3:14–16; 6:35, 47–58, 5:24, 10:27–29), but he also equally emphasizes his authority as Lord, as clearly seen in his call to discipleship. His teaching on discipleship is his definitive teaching on the kingdom of God and what it means to enter into a relationship with himself. There is perhaps no greater confusion within evangelicalism in our day, however, than that which relates to this subject. For this reason we need to look at it in some detail.

Christ’s Call to Discipleship

In Luke 14, Jesus gives the following conditions of discipleship:

If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple (Lk. 14:26).

Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple (Lk. 14:27).

So therefore, no one of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions (Lk. 14:33).

It is clear that Jesus is not talking here about a process of discipleship, but a commitment of discipleship. While a biblical commitment to Christ results in a process of growth, in this particular passage Christ is talking about an initial commitment to himself. Jesus has enunciated unalterable and absolute requirements which he says must be met or one cannot become his disciple. Let us examine his words to see what exactly the Lord means by his teaching.

1.) Luke 14:26: ‘If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple.’
      To properly interpret the meaning of the Lord’s words, especially his use of the word hate, we need to refer to Matthew 10:37: ‘He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.’
     What Jesus is dealing with here is love and devotion. Jesus demands first place in the heart of an individual. He must be preeminent in the life. All other relationships are to take a secondary place in relationship to himself. William Hendriksen makes the following comments on this verse: 

He tells the people that devotion to Himself must be so wholehearted that even attachment to parents and to other members of one’s family must not be allowed to stand in the way. Clearly the meaning of the word hate in the Lucan passage is to love less.  In all things Christ must always have the preeminence (Col 1:18). That the word hate in Luke 14:26 cannot have the meaning which we generally attach to it is clear also from the fact that Jesus tells us to love even our enemies (Matt 5:44). What the Savior demands in Luke 14:26 and other passages is complete devotion, the type of loyalty that is so true and unswerving that every other attachment, even to one’s own life must be subjected to it.  If a person is unwilling to tender that unconditional devotion, then says Jesus, ‘he cannot be My disciple’ (William Hendriksen, New Testament Commentary, The Gospel of Luke (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1978), pp. 734-735).

2.) Luke 14:27: ‘Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple.’
The issue in this verse is that of self denial. We will be looking at this concept in more detail but these words by G. Campbell Morgan adequately sum up what the Lord Jesus means:

What is self denial?. . .To deny self is to say no to every wish that comes out of the personal life. To deny self is radical.  It goes down to the roots of things. A man may practice self denial all his life and never deny himself. A man may practice self denial in this and that respect, and all the while his self–centeredness is strengthened. Jesus did not say exercise self denial in externalities. He said deny self, have done with choosing, wishing, planning, arranging for self.  Choose no more, will no more, except to will that God shall will...I deny self when I hand over the keys of the citadel to the king and say, Enter and reign in every chamber of the being, in all possibilities of the soul (G. Campbell Morgan, The Westminster Pulpit, (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1954) Volume I, pp. 43-44).

So, Jesus must not only be first in one’s affections, but his will must come first in one’s life. An individual’s will must be submitted to the will of Jesus Christ.

3.) Luke 14:33: ‘So therefore, no one of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions.’
     William Hendriksen explains the meaning of this verse in these words, ‘Wholehearted devotion, all–out loyalty, complete self denial, so that one places himself, his time, his earthly possessions, his talents etc., at the disposal of Christ, is what Jesus asks’ 
(William Hendriksen, New Testament Commentary, The Gospel of Luke (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1981), p. 737).

As a matter of summation, then, what Jesus is calling for in these verses is a forsaking of everything and the unconditional surrender of self to him as Lord if we are to become his disciple. These are the conditions he clearly sets forth for entering into a relationship with himself. It is a commitment that is necessary for entering the kingdom of God. Apart from this commitment to become his disciple we cannot be saved. 
     In order to show this is an accurate interpretation of Jesus’ teaching in Luke 14 it is essential that we look carefully at a number of additional passages that deal with Jesus’ teaching on discipleship. These are Mark 8:34-37, John 12:24-26, Matthew 11:28-30 and Mark 10:17-22. These passages reveal three general word pictures used by Jesus which are descriptive of his teaching on salvation and discipleship: the cross, the yoke and the grain of wheat. They each illustrate the attitude towards self we must adopt if we are to be rightly related to him. They teach us that a Christian is one who has died to his life, in this world, and given himself wholly to Christ, to love him supremely and serve him exclusively. We cannot follow Christ and possess eternal life unless these word pictures are descriptive of our lives.

Mark 8:34-37: The Cross

If anyone wishes to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. For whoever wishes to save his life shall lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake and the gospel’s shall save it. For what does it profit a man to gain the whole world, and forfeit his soul? For what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? (Mk. 8:34–37. Cf. Lk. 9:23–27).

This is another foundational passage related to discipleship. In fact, Mark 8:34 is in principle the same verse as Luke 14:27. But in Mark 8 Jesus amplifies the verse, so we will understand exactly what he means. Whatever it means in Mark 8:34 is what it means in Luke 14:27.
     These words of Jesus to his disciples and the multitudes follow the incident of Peter’s attempt to dissuade the Lord from the path of the cross. Peter appeals to him to spare himself. Peter’s admonition springs from loving concern, but it is met with a stern, severe rebuke from Jesus. His reply to Peter is both revealing and instructive for it reveals to us the master principle that governed the life of Christ. And it is this initial response to Peter which forms the backdrop to his additional comments to all the disciples and the multitudes. Jesus utterly rejects Peter’s suggestion, actually ascribing it to Satan, and then says to Peter: ‘You are not setting your mind on God’s interests, but man’s (Mk. 8:33).’ Here Jesus sets forth a contrast between two life principles: God’s interests and man’s interests. And he reveals that the two are in conflict with one another. But he leaves us in no doubt as to which principle dominated his life. Jesus was controlled by one master passion: To know and do the will of God no matter what the cost to himself. Jesus’ life was not governed by his own interests, but those of his Father’s. As he himself stated over and over again: ‘For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me’ (Jn. 6:38). Self interest is the very antithesis of the life of Christ. His one holy passion was the will of God, for the glory of God, even if it meant persecution, suffering and death on a cross!
     There is the stark contrast here between man’s interests and God’s interests. It forms the context in which Jesus teaches about the cross and what it means to follow him. Being his follower means adopting the same attitude towards my life that he had towards his. After calling the multitudes and the disciples to himself Jesus says that if any man would come after him he must do three things: deny himself, take up his cross, and follow him. What does this mean?

Deny self: This means a turning from self–will, renouncing living for self. John Stott says: ‘Self denied...is not to deny things to myself, but to deny myself to myself. It is to say no to self and yes to Christ; to repudiate self and acknowledge Christ’ (John Stott, Basic Christianity (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1972), p. 111).

Take up the cross : A cross is an instrument of death and is used in a metaphorical sense by Jesus. When the term is used in conjunction with the phrase ‘deny self’, it carries the idea of dying to my right to myself and of living to promote my own interests. John Stott comments: ‘To take up a cross is to put oneself into the position of a condemned man on his way to execution. In other words, the attitude to self is that of crucifixion. Everyday the Christian is to die. Everyday he renounces the sovereignty to his own will. Everyday he renews his unconditional surrender to Jesus Christ.’ (John Stott, Basic Christianity (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1972), pp. 111-112).

Follow me: The tense of this verb indicates that it means to continually follow. Thayer’s Greek English Lexicon of the New Testament states that the Greek word follow means ‘to join one as a disciple, to become or be his disciple.’ To follow Jesus therefore means a death to self to become his disciple. I cease to live for my sake in order that I might live for his sake. 

Why the imperative call to deny self, take up a cross and follow Jesus? ‘For’, he says, ‘whosoever will save his life shall lose it, but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel’s the same shall save it’ (Mk. 8:35).  The key to understanding the meaning of this verse is the word lose.  The Greek ‘lose’ is precisely the same Greek word that is translated perish in other parts of the New Testament. It means to die eternally:

The Lord is not...wishing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9).

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life (Jn. 3:16).

To insure that we fully understand the issues involved Christ further explains and emphasizes his point in verses 36-37:

For what does it profit a man to gain the whole world, and forfeit his soul? For what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

Jesus is saying that if a man does not deny self, take up a cross and commit to be his follower or disciple then that man will perish—he will forfeit his soul. Jesus makes this same point in John 10:27-28 where he once again uses the word ‘follow’ as a characteristic of his sheep:

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand.

Who are the true sheep of the Lord Jesus? Who are the ones who hear his voice, to whom he gives eternal life and who will therefore never perish? It is those who follow him; those who commit themselves to him to become his disciples. The issue is one of eternity and salvation.  Both William Hendriksen and R.C.H. Lenski make this point in their comments on Mark 8:34:

This is not self denial in the current sense of the word but true conversion, the very first essential of the Christian life (R.C.H. Lenski, Interpretation of St. Mark’s Gospel (Minneapolis: Augsburg, 1961), p. 348).

Together the three (deny self, take up a cross, and follow me) indicate true conversion followed by a life long sanctification (William Hendriksen, New Testament Commentary, The Gospel of Mark (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1975), p. 330).

Based upon the meaning and contextual interpretation of the words Jesus used one can only conclude that Mark 8:34 is stating a requirement for salvation. This scripture clearly says that one cannot become a Christian without a commitment to Christ as a disciple. In Luke 14:27, the parallel passage to Mark 8:34, Jesus also relates discipleship to salvation. In Mark 8 Jesus says one must become his disciple or he will perish. In Luke 14 he amplifies for us the conditions which must be fulfilled if one would become his disciple. It is obvious from our study of the above passage that when Jesus uses the term ‘disciple’, he uses it as a synonym for the term Christian. To become a disciple, therefore, is to become a Christian. To become a Christian is to become a disciple. Thus, the whole passage in Luke 14 is the setting forth of his conditions for entering the kingdom of God. William Hendriksen’s comments on the importance of obeying Christ’s demands in Mark 8:34 and Luke 9:23 to deny self and take up a cross are worth noting:

In the next three verses...the obligation to be converted, etc., and the reward that results are brought into sharp contrast with the loss experienced by those who refuse to deny themselves, to take up their cross, and to follow Jesus...Accordingly, with an implied ‘Let him not refuse,’ there follows...For whoever would save his life shall lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake, he shall save it. Meaning: the individual who would—or ‘should wish to’—save his life shall lose it. Exactly what is it that he wishes to save? Answer: his life, that is, himself...This man clings to that sinful life of his, holding on to it tenaciously...On the other hand, whoever loses his life ‘for my sake,’ he shall save it. One loses his life in the present sense by devoting oneself completely to Christ, to the service of those in need, to the gospel (Cf. Mark 8:35). Note that Christ lays claim to absolute devotion. This proves that he regards himself as Lord of all, and that the evangelist was fully aware of this! The person who offers this devotion saves his life, that is, his soul, or as we can also say, himself...It is only by losing oneself—looking away from self in order to serve the Master and his ‘little ones’ (Cf. Matt. 25:40)—that one can ever be saved...For the sinner salvation is impossible apart from obedience to this rule (William Hendriksen, New Testament Commentary, The Gospel of Luke (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1978), pp. 498-500).

In light of these passages it is clear that Jesus never taught that an individual could become a Christian and then at a later time make a secondary wholehearted commitment to him as a disciple. Jesus does not separate being a Christian from being a disciple. They are interchangeable terms. According to Jesus, if one is not a disciple he is not a Christian. When he calls men to himself to be saved he calls them to a discipleship commitment—to the taking up of a cross to crucify self to become a follower. And scripture teaches that all who truly belong to Christ have done that: ‘Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires’ (Gal. 5:24). There are a number of other examples which amplify and highlight this emphasis in the teaching and evangelism of Jesus.

Matthew 11:28-30: The Yoke

Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy–laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you, and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart; and you shall find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy, and My load is light.

In Mark 8 and Luke 14 Jesus uses the image of the cross to communicate the conditions of discipleship. Here he refers to a yoke. What does Jesus mean by his yoke? In Jewish culture the yoke was used to harness animals, to control them and bring them into submission to one’s will, so that they could be used in labor. In this passage (Mt. 11), Jesus issues an invitation to men to come to him to find rest for their souls. He sets forth an invitation, a condition and a promise. The invitation is ‘come to me’. The promise is rest and the condition is ‘take my yoke upon you.’ Man is restless and burdened. Why? Because he is ruled by self and not by God. What Jesus is saying is that he can give us rest but it requires a certain kind of commitment. We must bend our necks under his yoke and come into submission to his authority and teaching. We must be willing to adopt the same heart towards self that Jesus himself has. He tells us in this passage that he is meek and humble in heart. His whole life is dominated and governed by God and his will and interests. If we would come to him and find rest we must repudiate self and selfish interests and submit ourselves to Jesus as Lord—to yield to his yoke, his authority and control. James Montgomery Boice makes these observations on the meaning of Christ’s yoke:

In one of Jesus’ most important sayings about discipleship...the Lord pictures discipleship as putting on a yoke. This suggests a number of things, but chiefly it suggests submission to Christ for His assigned work. It is the picture of an animal yoked to others as well as to a plow.
     A yoke is also the connection between submission and subjection. ‘Submit’ comes from the two Latin words sub (meaning ‘under’) and mitto, mittere (meaning ‘to put’ or ‘place’). So submission means putting oneself under the authority of another. ‘Subject’ also comes from two Latin words, in this case sub (meaning ‘under’) and iacto, iactare (meaning ‘cast’ or ‘throw’). It means being put under the authority of another. In other words, although the first word has an active sense (I put myself under another’s authority) and the second word has a passive sense (I am placed under that authority), the idea is nevertheless essentially the same. Moreover, it is connected with ‘yoke’ in this way. In ancient times it was customary for a ruler, when he had conquered a new people or territory, to place a staff across two upright poles, perhaps four feet off the ground, and require the captured people to pass under it. By this act they passed under his yoke or submitted to his authority. When Jesus used this image He was saying that to follow Him was to submit to Him. It was to receive Him as Lord of one’s life 
(James Montgomery Boice, Christ’s Call to Discipleship (Chicago: Moody, 1986), p. 19).

John 12:24-26: The Grain of Wheat

Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains by itself alone; but if it dies it bears much fruit. He who loves his life loses it; and he who hates his life in this world shall keep it to life eternal. If anyone serves Me, let him follow Me; and where I am, there shall My servant also be; if anyone serves Me, the Father will honor him.

Jesus gives us yet another word picture here which is descriptive of both his own life and that of the Christian. Again he is illustrating what it means to come into a saving relationship with himself. First of all, he depicts himself as a grain of wheat in describing his death on the cross. He is using a principle drawn from the physical world to teach a spiritual truth. What is that truth? Fruitfulness and life is born out of death. It is only as the grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies that it produces fruit. Just so, unless the Son of Man goes to the cross there will be no fruit, but if he dies there will be much spiritual fruit for the kingdom of God. 
     Through this word picture Jesus tells us the attitude he has towards his own life. His life is not lived unto himself but totally for the sake of others—first and foremost for his Father and then for people. He constantly gives of himself even to the point of death.
     Jesus then applies this principle to all who would be his followers. He says there are two fundamental attitudes that we can adopt towards our life in this world: that of love and that of hatred. Jesus says that if we love our life we will lose it, but if we hate it we will keep it to life eternal. We must understand the word hate here in the same way that Jesus used it in Luke 14. He means that nothing is to take priority over himself and the kingdom of God in our hearts. Everything else is to be loved less. Our lives are not to be our highest priority. We are not here to live for ourselves but for our Lord. We are not to literally hate ourselves but our love for God and his kingdom must take absolute priority over our lives. If we love our life more than Christ we will lose it. This word lose is the same word Jesus uses in Mark 8 which means to perish. He is speaking here about eternal death and eternal life.
     He then states that to be his servant we must follow him. If we would gain eternal life and truly know Christ there must be a death to self. I must become, in a figurative sense, a grain of wheat which falls into the ground and dies. I must come to an end of living for myself and this world. I commit myself unreservedly to Christ to be his follower—to love him supremely and to serve him exclusively. If I do not do this Jesus says I will perish. He says the same thing in Mark 8. We die to ourselves that we might live for God and his will and the result is fruit. The apostle Paul writes of this in Romans 12:1 where he exhorts believers to continually offer themselves to God as a living sacrifice: ‘I urge you therefore brethren by the mercies of God to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.’ F.F. Bruce makes these comments on the meaning of Jesus’ teaching about the grain of wheat in John 12:24:

The principle stated in verse 24 is of wide application; in particular, if it is true of Jesus, it must be true of his followers. They too must be prepared to renounce present interests for the sake of a future inheritance. This is a Johannine counterpart to the Synoptic saying about the disciple’s obligation to take up his cross and follow his Master (cf. Mark 8:34-38). To love one’s life here means to give it priority over the interests of God’s kingdom; similarly to hate one’s life is to give priority over it to the interests of God’s kingdom (F.F. Bruce, The Gospel of John (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1983), p. 265).

The New Testament scholar, D.A. Carson, gives these insightful and sobering observations in explaining the essence of Jesus’ teaching:

But if the principle modelled by the seed—that death is the necessary condition for the generation of life—is peculiarly applicable to Jesus, in a slightly different way it is properly applied to all of Jesus’ followers...The movement of thought in this passage runs from Jesus’ uniquely fruitful death (the death of one seed producing many living seeds) to the mandated death of Jesus’ followers as the necessary condition of their own life. The person who loves his own life will lose it: it could not be otherwise, for to love one’s life is a fundamental denial of God’s sovereignty, of God’s rights, and a brazen elevation of self to the apogee of one’s perception, and therefore an idolatrous focus on self, which is the heart of all sin. Such a person loses his life, i.e. causes his own perdition. By contrast, the one who hates his life (the love/hate contrast reflects a semitic idiom that articulates fundamental preference, not hatred on some absolute scale...) will keep it for eternal life (cf. Mk. 8:35 par...). This person denies himself, or, to use another of Jesus’ metaphors, takes up his cross daily (Mk. 8:34 par.), i.e. he chooses not to pander to self–interest but at the deepest level of his being declines to make himself the focus of his interest and perception, thereby dying. 
      A second contrast emerges in v. 25. The man who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life...These choices cannot be acts of mere self–abnegation. Self must be displaced by another; the endless, shameless focus on self must be displaced by focus on Jesus Christ, who is the supreme revelation of God 
(D.A. Carson, The Gospel According to John (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1991), pp. 438-439).

The theme of Jesus’ teaching in John 12 is that of fruit. This is an important theme throughout the New Testament:

• Romans 7:4 states that a believer is united to Christ with the ultimate purpose of bearing fruit unto God. 
• In John 12 Jesus defines what conditions are necessary for union with Christ to take place that fruit might be produced: a death to self with a corresponding commitment to Christ to be his follower or disciple. 
• John 15:8 says that we are to bear much fruit and so prove to be Christ’s disciple. Only a disciple can bear fruit. And a true disciple is one who has met the conditions set forth by Jesus in Luke 14, Mark 8, Matthew 11 and John 12. 
• Romans 6:22 states that fruit can only come from a heart and life that is wholly consecrated to God.

Discipleship is the essence of true Christianity. All who would come into the kingdom of God must submit their lives to Christ as his disciple to be his follower. This is evident in the commission that Christ gives to his disciples in Matthew 28:19-20 in the preaching of the gospel:

All authority in heaven and hearth has been given to Me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you, And lo I am with you always even to the end of the age.

This passage of scripture is known as the Great Commission. It is the Savior’s commission to his followers to go into all the world and ‘make disciples.’ 
     The Lord himself has already defined the word disciple in Luke 14. Therefore the word is going to retain the same meaning in Matthew 28. He is commissioning his followers to carry on the same ministry he has been engaged in—that of bringing men and women to himself through the preaching of the gospel. To ‘make disciples’ is to bring men and women to the kind of commitment that is defined by Jesus in Luke 14. Such people then become disciples or true converts. Then we are told to baptize them and teach them. Who does the word them refer to? Clearly to those who have been ‘made disciples’. We are to baptize and then teach those who have become disciples. This passage is not dealing only with a process of growth in discipleship, but with that point of commitment where an individual becomes a true follower of the Lord Jesus Christ. The Lord is commissioning his disciples to carry on the same kind of evangelism he has been involved in throughout his ministry.  One clear example of this is seen in the incident of the rich young ruler.

The Rich Young Ruler

And as He was setting out on a journey, a man ran up to Him and knelt before Him and began asking Him, ‘Good teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?’ And Jesus said to him, ‘Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone. You know the commandments, Do not murder, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and mother.’ And he said to him, ‘Teacher I have kept all these things from my youth up.’
     And looking at him, Jesus felt a love for him, and said to him, ‘One thing you lack: go and sell all you possess and give to the poor and you shall have treasure in heaven, and come follow Me.’ But at these words his face fell and he went away grieved, for he was one who owned much property (Mk. 10:17-22).

This passage of Scripture is very important as it relates to our present study. This man comes to Jesus earnestly seeking the way of eternal life. He specifically asks the Lord what he must do to be saved. And Jesus tells him that he lacks one thing. He must sell all he possesses, give the proceeds to the poor, and follow him. Again we are confronted with this key word—follow. This is the same condition Jesus lays before the multitudes in Luke 14: ‘Whoever does not take up his cross and follow Me cannot be My disciple...No one of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions’ (Lk. 14:27,33). The Lord places this condition before the young ruler as a condition for salvation.  If he would enter the kingdom of God and inherit eternal life he must forsake all and follow Christ. As we have already seen the word ‘follow’ means to become a disciple. He can gain eternal life if he is willing to become a disciple. This means unreserved surrender to Christ as Lord. Walter Chantry makes the following comments:

Often Christ turned crowds away by insisting that ‘whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be My disciple’ (Lk. 14:33). He was not speaking of abundant life nor of ‘victorious’ giants of the faith...He demanded this turning from everything to himself as a condition of discipleship for everyone. The young ruler would turn from earthly riches to heavenly or he would cling to earthly riches and perish...The sinner must know that Jesus will not be a Savior to any man who refuses to bow to him as Lord...Christ knew nothing of the man–made twentieth–century suggestion that taking Jesus as Lord is optional. For him it was no second step which is essential for great blessings but unnecessary for entering God’s kingdom.  The altered message of today has deceived men and women by convincing them that Jesus will gladly be a Savior even to those who refuse to follow him as Lord.  It simply is not the truth! Jesus’ invitation to salvation is, ‘Come, follow me’...Practical acknowledgment of Jesus’ Lordship, yielding to his rule by following is the very fibre of saving faith...Believing is obeying. Without obedience, you shall not see life! Unless you bow to Christ’s scepter you will not receive the benefits of Christ’s sacrifice. That is just what Jesus said to the ruler (Walter Chantry, Today’s Gospel - Synthetic or Authentic? (Edinburgh: Banner, 1970), pp. 55, 59-60).

Christ preached the law to the rich young ruler to bring him under conviction and to repentance. He put his finger on the young man’s idol and demanded a forsaking of that idol if he would inherit eternal life. Jesus did not tell the rich young ruler simply to ‘believe’ in him. He commanded him to become a disciple. This is Jesus’ message in evangelism, a call to discipleship. Thus, in Matthew 28:18–20 he is commissioning his disciples to follow his example. 
It is clear from these passages that Christ taught that salvation requires a commitment to him as Lord. To understand why this is true we need to understand how Jesus’ teaching relates to the gospel message itself.

Matthew 7:13-24: Beware of False Prophets

Enter the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction and many are those who enter by it. For the gate is small, and the way is narrow that leads to life, and few are those who find it. Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves (Mt. 7:13–15).

Christ warns that the gate is strait and the way is narrow that leads to life. It is narrow because Christ is the only way and because the conditions required for those who would enter are difficult. We do well to heed Jesus’ words of warning in Matthew 7: ‘Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves’ (Mt. 7:15). False prophets proclaim a false message resulting in false assurance. They dilute the demands of the gospel by making the gate wide and the way broad. Such teachers and preachers may acknowledge Christ as Lord, by affirming his deity, but deny that a commitment to him as Lord is necessary for salvation. But acknowledging the title or position of Jesus theologically and submitting to him as Lord are very different. Jesus tells us that those who profess his deity without a corresponding submission of life will not enter heaven. Only those who do the will of God will enter heaven:

Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophecy in your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

The people Jesus mentions are sincere and orthodox in their view of Christ but they are lost. Jesus says the reason is that they practice lawlessness. 1 John 3:4 says, ‘Sin is lawlessness.’ Lawlessness is a heart of rebellion against God. A heart of self–will and self–rule. These people profess Christ as Lord but they do not submit to him as Lord to do his will. In preaching the gospel we must call men to Christ, but in doing so, we must impress upon them what that will mean. If we minimize Christ’s demands for repentance and faith we will in effect be wolves in sheep’s clothing—false prophets declaring to men a wide gate and a broad way of salvation. Martyn Lloyd–Jones gives this warning about the false prophets of Matthew 7:

We are told at the very outset of this way of life, before we start on it that if we would walk along it there are certain things which must be left outside, behind us. There is no room for them because we have to start by passing through a strait and narrow gate...The first thing we leave behind us is what is called worldliness. We leave behind the crowd and the way of the world...Our Lord is warning us against the danger of an easy salvation, against the tendency to say—Just come to Christ as you are and all is going to be well. No, the gospel tells us at the outset that it is going to be difficult. It means a radical break with the world...Yes, but still narrower and still straiter, if we really want to come into this way of life, we have to leave our ‘self’ outside. And it is there of course that we come to the greatest stumbling–block of all. It is one thing to leave the world, and the way of the world, but the most important thing in a sense is to leave our self outside. Have no illusion about this...for he who would enter by this gate must say goodbye to self. It is a life of self-abasement, self humiliation. ‘If any man will come after Me’—what happens? Let him deny himself (the first thing always), and take up his cross and follow Me. But self denial, denial of self, does not mean refraining from various pleasures and things that we may like. It means to deny our very right to ourself. We leave our self outside and go through the gate saying, ‘Yet not I but Christ liveth in Me.’
     In the same way it (the false prophet’s teaching) does not emphasize repentance in any real sense. It has a very wide gate leading to salvation and a very broad way leading to heaven. You need not feel much of your own sinfulness; you need not be aware of the blackness of your own heart. You just decide for Christ and rush in with the crowd and your name is put down and is one of the large number of decisions reported by the press. 
     Repentance means that you realize that you are a guilty vile sinner in the presence of God; that you deserve the wrath and punishment of God, that you are hell–bound. It means that you begin to realize that this thing called sin is in you; that you long to get rid of it, and that you turn your back on it in every shape and form. You renounce the world whatever the cost, the world in its mind and outlook as well as its practice, and you deny yourself, and take up the cross and go after Christ. Your nearest and dearest and the whole world may call you a fool, or say you have religious mania. You may have to suffer financially, but it makes no difference. That is repentance. The false prophet does not put it like that. He heals ‘the hurt of the daughter of My people slightly, simply saying that it is all right and that you have but to come to Christ, ‘follow Christ,’ or ‘become a Christian’ 
(D. M. Lloyd–Jones, Sermon on the Mount (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1981), Vol. 2, pp. 221, 224-225, 248-249).

Jesus’ Definition of the Word Disciple

The yoke, the cross, the grain of wheat, a follower, a servant —these are all terms used by Jesus to describe his radical teaching on what it means to truly know him. But much of his teaching is misinterpreted, misunderstood and misapplied. Many evangelical teachers today view discipleship as a process of sanctification or as a second, deeper commitment, not having anything to do with the conditions for entering the kingdom of God. 
     The word disciple is the Greek word mathetes, which means a learner. However, this definition is inadequate when used in relationship with Jesus Christ for he amplifies the term far beyond its basic Greek meaning. Just as the word for love, as normally used in Greek culture, was expanded and redefined by the writers of the New Testament, so the term disciple is given a whole new depth of meaning by Jesus. The normative meaning of the term in the Jewish and Greek cultures of Jesus’ day was that of one who committed himself to a teacher to become a learner. But when scripture uses the term in relation to Jesus Christ it gives an expanded meaning to the term for the obvious reason that we are not merely dealing with a human teacher in Jesus, but with the incarnate God! Our concept of discipleship must be according to Jesus’ definition and his words must be the standard by which we define the term. It is true that a disciple of Jesus will be a learner. But a disciple of Jesus is more than a learner, he is a follower who has denied self, taken up a cross and forsaken all to live for Christ and his kingdom. And according to Jesus, only a disciple is a true Christian.

The Demands of Discipleship and the Gospel

How does the discipleship teaching of Jesus fit into the overall scheme of the gospel of grace and salvation?  To properly interpret this, we must understand the purpose of creation. We were not only created by God, but created to fulfil a specific purpose. Colossians 1:16 says that all things have been created ‘by Him and for Him.’ We have been created for God. He, himself, is to be the supreme purpose for our existence and the object of our love: ‘I am the Lord your God...you shall have no other gods before Me’ (Ex. 20:2-3).
This is reiterated by the Lord Jesus when he says that the first and greatest of all the commandments is: ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind’ (Mt. 22:37). God himself is to be the center of our lives. He is to have first place in our affections, the preeminent place in our hearts. No other person or thing must be allowed to displace him from his rightful place in our hearts. And no other purpose should be more important than knowing and doing the will of God. My own personal will, ambitions or interests, or those of another should never to take precedence over the will of God.
     Man was created to be under God’s authority, to love him supremely, and to live in obedience to his will. Man’s fundamental problem, however, is that he does not live this way. He has rebelled against his Creator and does not live to fulfil God’s will but his own. The Bible calls this sin. God no longer holds his rightful place in the heart of man. The pursuit of personal happiness and self rule dominates the life rather than God.  Men do not live under God’s rule but have become authorities unto themselves, living independently of him. Man is alienated and separated from God and is not rightly related to him as a person. Man exists in a state of sin and produces specific acts of sin.

The Gospel and Salvation

The gospel is a message of reconciliation. It tells us that the just demands of God’s law, to which all men are accountable have been fulfilled through the life and death of Christ. But salvation means much more than a declaration of forgiveness, acceptance with God and the assurance that one has been delivered from hell. It means cleansing from guilt and defilement. But it also means restoration to a relationship with God. An individual repents of sin and rebellion, and God takes his rightful place in the life. That person now begins to fulfil the purpose for which he was created. He now no longer lives for himself but for Jesus Christ. In other words, salvation is deliverance from sin—its guilt and its dominion and power. Repentance is a turning from sin and selfishness with wholehearted commitment to God. This is conversion.

Scripture clearly teaches that repentance is a necessary condition for salvation along with faith. The Bible presents repentance as a separate and distinct concept from faith. They are two completely different Greek words, and they mean entirely different things, though in the experience of salvation or conversion, they are indivisible. J.I. Packer writes, ‘The gospel is a summons to faith and repentance. All who hear the gospel are summoned by God to repent and believe' (Acts 17:30, John 6:29). Faith and repentance are both acts, and acts of the whole man.’8 John Calvin makes the following comment: ‘The sum of the gospel is held to consist in repentance and forgiveness of sins (Luke 24:47, Acts 5:31). Any discussion of faith, therefore, that omitted these two topics would be barren and mutilated and well nigh useless.’9 That repentance is necessary for salvation but is used as a separate concept from faith is seen in the following verses:

Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer, and rise again from the dead the third day; and that repentance for forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in His name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem (Luke 24:46-47).

Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, and saying, ‘The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent and believe in the gospel’ (Mark 1: 14,15).

Unless you repent, you will all likewise perish (Luke 13:3).

Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all everywhere should repent (Acts 17:30).

I did not shrink from declaring to you anything that was profitable, and teaching you publicly and from house to house, solemnly testifying to both Jews and Greeks of repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 20:20,21).

The Lord is not...wishing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9).

The word of God clearly states that repentance and faith are both necessary for salvation. Delete either one and you do not have biblical salvation or a biblical gospel. Faith without repentance cannot save because the Lord Jesus clearly says, ‘Except ye repent ye will all likewise perish’ (Luke 13:3). And repentance without faith cannot save because it is faith that justifies. Therefore we must conclude that salvation is the result of repentant faith. Both must be present.
     It is also important to note that this call to repentance is not to be understood as something which applies only to the Jews in a different dispensation. The Lord Jesus commanded that it be preached as a part of the great commission to the whole world (Luke 24:44) and Paul in summing up the gospel that he preached to both Gentiles and Jews (Acts 20:19-20) said it consisted of repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
Since repentance is necessary for salvation, what precisely is biblical repentance? In other words, if an individual is going to repent, what is that going to mean? How is this truth to be applied? The Bible answers this in the teaching of Jesus. In the passages we have looked at Jesus is defining and applying the truth of repentance.  He tells us what it means in practical terms. The specific things which Jesus mentions in Luke 14—other relationships, one’s own life, possessions—are the very things which can displace God from his rightful place of preeminence in the heart. These are idols and Jesus says they must be torn down and cast away. Jonathan Edwards underscores this truth in these words:

The apostasy of man summarily consists in departing from the true God, to idols; forsaking his Creator and setting up other things in his room...The gods which a natural man worships, instead of the God that made him, are himself and the world...They are not willing to accept Christ; for in doing so, they must of necessity part with all their sins; they must sell the world, and part with their own righteousness...He is a Savior appointed of God; he anointed him, and sent him into the world. And in performing the work of redemption, he wrought the works of God; always did those things that pleased him; and all that he does as a Savior, is to his glory. And one great thing he aimed at in redemption, was to deliver them from their idols, and bring them to God (The Works of Jonathan Edwards, Volume 2, Discourse: Men Naturally are God’s Enemies, pp. 132, 138-139).

Finally Jesus gives the warning in Luke 14:28–32 to count the cost of becoming his disciple. Why? Because he is in this world to build and to battle. He is here to further his kingdom. Any man who comes to him must forsake all (Lk. 14:33), submit his life to Jesus Christ as Lord and follow him to live for his kingdom. This is the nature of repentance.  J.I. Packer makes this point in the following comments:

Repentance is more than just sorrow for the past; repentance is a change of mind and heart, a new life of denying self and serving the Savior as King in self’s place...More than once Christ deliberately called attention to the radical break with the past that repentance involves. Luke 9:23,24—‘If any man will come after Me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow Me, whosoever will lose his life for My sake the same (but only he) will save it’.  Luke 14:26,33—‘If any man come to Me and hate not his father and mother and wife and children and brethren and sisters yea and his own life also (i.e., put them all decisively second in his esteem) he cannot be my disciple. . .whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be My disciple.’ The repentance that Christ requires of His people consists in a settled refusal to set any limit to the claims which He may make on their lives (J.I. Packer, Evagelism and the Sovereignty of God (Downers Grove: InterVarsity, 1961), p. 72).

Christ’s call to discipleship is in principle the same call of God given to lost men and women during the Old Testament days of Ezekiel. It is a call to repentance—a turning from and forsaking of idolatry and sin:

Then some of the elders of Israel came to me and sat down before me. And the word of the Lord came to me saying, ‘Son of man, these men have set up their idols in their hearts, and have put right before their faces the stumbling block of their iniquity. Should I be consulted by them at all? Therefore speak to them and tell them, Thus says the Lord God, Any man of the house of Israel who sets up his idols in his heart, puts right before his face the stumbling block of his iniquity, and then comes to the prophet, I the Lord will be brought to give him an answer in the matter in view of the multitude of his idols, in order to lay hold of the hearts of the house of Israel who are estranged from Me through all their idols.
Therefore say to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord God, Repent and turn away from your idols, and turn your faces away from all your abominations.’
     Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct declares the Lord God. Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you. Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies, declares the Lord God. Therefore, repent and live (Ez. 14:1-6, 18:30-32).

This word of the prophet is echoed in the New Testament by Jesus when he says, ‘Unless you repent, you will all likewise perish’ (Lk. 13:3). Jesus is saying is that to become a Christian, one must become a disciple. The two are synonymous terms. The Bible knows of no such concept as that taught so widely today that a person can be a Christian and yet not be a disciple. The Lord Jesus forever nullifies such a concept by his teaching. If a man does not become a disciple by denying self and enthroning Jesus as Lord, he will perish. Acts 11:26 tells us that ‘the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.’ Before they ever received the name Christian they were called disciples.
     The essence of sin is self–will and self–rule. In other words living for self. Sin is defined in 1 John 3:4 where we are told ‘sin is lawlessness.’ Vines Expository Dictionary says that lawlessness is ‘the displacement of the will of God with the will of self.’ Therefore sin in its essence is self–will. Or as John Stott puts it, ‘sin is self.’ Repentance means turning from sin. Dr. Thiessen says:

In conversion faith is the turning of the soul to God as repentance is the turning of the soul from sin (Henry Thiessen, Lectures in Systematic Theology (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1979), pg. 271).

Therefore since the essence of sin is self–will, repentance is turning from self–will or self–rule and submitting the life to Jesus as Lord, thereby becoming his disciple. If a man has not dethroned self and enthroned Jesus as Lord, he is still living in self–will and self–rule and has therefore not truly repented. He will perish. Repentance is towards God. It is a change of mind toward God as the rightful ruler and authority in one’s life. The Scriptures emphasize salvation as a total concept. Justification is but one aspect of salvation. Salvation is in Jesus Christ. He is the Savior. He has done the work. It is by his merits and his alone that any individual is forgiven and accepted by God. His righteousness is imputed to the believer. But salvation becomes the personal possession of an individual only when Christ becomes the personal possession of the individual and he is in turn possessed by Christ. Salvation is applied to an individual through union with Christ when an individual receives Christ as prophet, priest and king through repentance and faith. I trust him as Savior and commit myself to him as Lord. The Westminster Confession says:

The principal acts of saving faith are, accepting, receiving, and resting upon Christ alone for justification, sanctification, and eternal life, by virtue of the covenant of grace (XIV.2) (Found in The Confession of Faith by A.A. Hodge (Edinburgh: Banner, 1958), p. 204).

The Confession states that saving faith involves receiving Christ for justification and also for sanctification. What it means to receive Christ for sanctification is described by the Puritan theologian John Owen in these words:

Obedience unto Christ does not consist merely in doing the things which He requireth...All obedience unto Christ proceeds from an express subjection of our souls and consciences unto Him (The Works of John Owen (Edinburgh: Banner, 1965), Volume I, pp. 134, 136).

What Owen is saying is that the process of sanctification will begin when there is first a commitment characterized by submission to Christ. The process flows out of the commitment. John Murray points out that the term sanctification in Scripture has two meanings: an initial commitment and consecration of the life to Christ from the world and sin, which he calls ‘definitive sanctification’, and the process of growth in the Christian life. He describes it in these terms:

When we speak of sanctification we generally think of it as a process by which the believer is gradually transformed in heart, mind, will, and conduct, and conformed more and more to the will of God and to the image of Christ, until at death the disembodied spirit is made perfect in holiness, and at the resurrection his body likewise will be conformed to the likeness of the body of Christ’s glory. It is biblical to apply the term ‘sanctification’ to this process of transformation and conformation. But it is a fact too frequently overlooked that in the New Testament the most characteristic terms that refer to sanctification are used, not of a process, but of a once–for–all definitive act. We properly think of calling, regeneration, justification, and adoption as acts of God effected once for all, and not requiring or admitting of repetition. It is of their nature to be definitive. But a considerable part of the New Testament teaching places sanctification in this category. We are... compelled to take account of the fact that the language of sanctification is used with reference to some decisive action that occurs at the inception of the Christian life, and one that characterizes the people of God in their identity as called effectually by God’s grace. It would be, therefore, a deflection from biblical patterns of language and conception to think of sanctification exclusively in terms of a progressive work...
     What is this sanctification?...The person who lives in sin, or to sin, lives and acts in the realm of sin—it is the sphere of his life and activity. And the person who died to sin no longer lives in that sphere. His tie with it has been broken, and he has been translated into another realm...This is the decisive cleavage that the apostle has in view; it is the foundation upon which rests his whole conception of a believer’s life, and it is a cleavage, a breach, a translation as really and decisively true in the sphere of moral and religious relationship as in ordinary experience of death. There is a once–for–all definitive and irreversible breach with the realm in which sin reigns in and unto death...This means that there is a decisive and definitive breach with the power and service of sin in the case of every one who has come under the control of the provisions of grace (emphasis mine) 
(Collected Writings of John Murray (Edinburgh: Banner, 1977), Volume 2, pp. 278-280).

A saved man is a man who has received Christ as Savior and Lord. He is both justified and sanctified. He is regenerated and converted. Because of union with Christ and a new nature, he lives a life in conformity to Jesus Christ in the power of his resurrection by the enabling of the indwelling Spirit. Where there is no submission to Christ as Lord there simply is no true Christianity. James Montgomery Boice offers this sober warning regarding the salvation teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ:

There is a fatal defect in the life of Christ’s church in the twentieth century: a lack of true discipleship. Discipleship means forsaking everything to follow Christ. But for many of today’s supposed Christians—perhaps the majority—it is the case that while there is much talk about Christ and even much furious activity, there is actually very little following of Christ Himself. And that means in some circles there is very little genuine Christianity. Many who fervently call Him ‘Lord, Lord’ are not Christians (Matthew 7:21)...
     There are several reasons that the situation I have described is common in today’s church. The first is a defective theology that has crept over us like a deadening fog. This theology separates faith from discipleship and grace from obedience. It teaches that Jesus can be received as one’s Savior without being received as one’s Lord...Discipleship in not a supposed second step in Christianity, as if one first became a believer in Jesus and then, if he chooses, a disciple. From the beginning, discipleship is involved in what it means to be a Christian....Is ‘faith’ minus commitment a true biblical faith?...If faith without works is dead—how much truer is it that faith without commitment is dead...True faith involves these elements: knowledge...heart response...and commitment, without which ‘faith’ is no different from the assent of the demons who ‘believe...and shudder’ (James 2:19) 
(James Montgomery Boice, Christ’s Call to Discipleship (Chicago: Moody, 1986), pp. 13, 14, 16, 21).

A.W. Tozer makes these comments:

The sinner is actually a rebel against properly constituted authority. That is what makes sin—sin. We are rebels. We are sons of disobedience. Sin is the breaking of the law and we are in rebellion and we are fugitives from the just laws of God while we are sinners. The root of sin is rebellion against law, rebellion against God. Does not the sinner say, I belong to myself. I owe allegiance to no one unless I choose to give it. That is the essence of sin. Thus in repentance, we reverse that relationship and we fully submit to the Word of God and the will of God as obedient children. We have no basis to believe that we can come casually and sprightly to the Lord Jesus and say, I have come for some help, Lord Jesus. I understand that you are the Savior so I am going to believe and be saved and then I am going to turn away and think about the other matters of lordship and allegiance and obedience at some other time in the future.
     I warn you, you will not get help from Him in that way for the Lord will not save those whom He cannot command. He will not divide His offices. You cannot believe on a half Christ. We take Him for what He is, the anointed Savior and Lord who is King of Kings and Lord of Lords 
(A. W. Tozer, I Call It Heresy(Camp Hill:Christian Publications, 1974), pp. 9, 14-16. 18-20).

The Bible makes it very clear that submission to the Lordship of Christ is a necessary condition for salvation. This is seen not only in Mark 8:34-37 but also is clearly stated or implied in the following verses:

For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living (Rom. 14:9).

That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and shalt believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved (Rom. 10:9).

But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life (Rom. 6:22).

He died for all, that they who live should no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf (2 Cor. 5:15).

For they themselves report about us what kind of reception we had with you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve a living and true God (I Thes. 1:9)

The Issue Of Works

The Bible clearly teaches that salvation is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast (Ephesians 2:8,9). Conservative evangelicals emphasize and rightly so, that no man can work his way to heaven. They preach consistently and forcefully against good works as a basis for salvation. They preach the need of turning by faith to Christ alone as the Savior, resting in his finished work and in the merits of his shed blood and righteousness. We commonly hear, ‘Baptism will not save you, church membership will not save you, tithing, witnessing, your moral life, your good deeds, your fastings, your prayers, indulgences, etc. None of these things can give you a standing before God.’
There must indeed be a turning from all self–righteousness if one is to come to know Jesus Christ as Savior. However, many of the same evangelicals who preach the need to turn from self–righteousness in order to be saved will not preach repentance from self–will and self–rule. Why? Many wrongly believe that demanding men to turn from self–will adds works to the gospel of grace. The question is this: What is the difference between turning from self–righteousness to Jesus as Savior and self–will to Jesus as Lord? If the one is a form of works then so is the other.
     The fact is, neither of them is works. Repentant, saving faith is a gift from God. Faith is a gift from God (Eph 2:8) as is repentance (Acts 11: 18): ‘When they heard these things, they held their peace and glorified God saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.’
     Jesus Christ is both Savior and Lord. He cannot be divided. If a man comes to Jesus he comes to him as he is, as both Lord and Savior. There must be a turning from self–righteousness for Jesus to be Savior and there must be a turning from self–will or self–rule for Jesus to be Lord. This is not a form of works but true biblical repentance which is a gift from God. True repentance is turning from self, while faith is turning to Christ. The result is conversion.As A.W. Pink says:

Repentance is the negative side of conversion. Conversion is a whole hearted turning unto God, but there cannot be a turning unto without a turning from. Sin must be forsaken ere one can draw nigh unto the Holy One. As it is written, “Ye turned to God from idols to serve (live for) the living and true God” (I Thessalonians 1:9) (A.W. Pink, The Doctrine of Salvation (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1979), p. 60).

We need to distinguish between discipleship as an initial commitment and discipleship as a process, for it is both. Much of the confusion about commitment to Christ as Lord as ‘works salvation’ comes from a failure to distinguish between the two. When Christ calls men to himself he calls them to a commitment of discipleship, as we have seen. From that commitment issues a life of good works in discipleship or sanctification. But unless this initial commitment is made there will be no new life of holiness because there is no union with Christ. The Holy Spirit does not indwell the heart. The individual is not converted. Many do not make the biblical distinction between an initial lordship or discipleship commitment and the process of sanctification. If we understand the distinction between the commitment of discipleship and the process of discipleship which is growth in sanctification, the confusion can be avoided.

The Results of Repentant Faith

What will be the result in the life of a person who truly repents and believes? The result will be a totally changed life. The overall bent or direction of the life, from the heart attitudes and motivations to the outward behavior, completely changes. Where the life used to be centered around self and the pursuit of selfish interests, it is now centered around Christ and His interests.
     No Christian will live a perfect life, but the desire of the heart—the practice or habit of the new creature in Christ—is to know and do the will of God. The issue is not perfection, but a changed life. If a person’s life has not been fundamentally changed from one of self centeredness to one of living for the will of God, then that person has never come to know Jesus Christ. The evidence of true conversion is a changed life.
     This is clearly taught in the Bible. Matthew 7:21 and I John 2:17 emphatically state that the only people who will enter the kingdom of heaven, possess eternal life and abide forever are those who do the will of God.

Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven (Mt. 7:21).

Do not love the world, nor the things in the world. If any one loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him...And the world is passing away, and also its lusts; but the one who does the will of God abides for ever (I Jn. 2:15,17).

In I John 2:1 we read, ‘My little children, I am writing these things to you that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.’
     I John 1:9 says, ‘If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.’
     The apostle John readily admits in these verses that the possibility of sin is very real. He does not teach perfection but in the book of 1 John he teaches that if a person’s life is not characterized by change, that person has never come to know Jesus Christ. In other words he has never truly repented and believed.
He says in I John 5:13 that he has written what he has written in order that men might know if they really possess eternal life. He says if a person has really believed in the Son he has life: ‘He who has the Son has life’ (I Jn. 5:12). But how does one know whether or not he has the Son and therefore has life? The answer to that question is clear. If the life passes the tests he has written about in all that precedes chapter five, the person can know he has eternal life. If the things he writes about are not evidenced in the life, then that person does not have the Son and therefore he does not have life. He has not believed savingly. He has what James calls ‘dead faith’ because he has no works or changed life.
John is not teaching perfection. Again, the issue is not perfection; the issue is a changed life. The following are some of the tests he gives:

And by this we know that we have come toknow Him, if we keep His commandments. The one who says, ‘I have come to know Him,’ and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him (I Jn . 2:3,4).

Do not love the world, nor the things in the world. If any one loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world. And the world is passing away, and also its lusts; but the one who does the will of God abides for ever (I Jn. 2:15–17).

No one who is born of God practices sin; because His seed abides in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother (I Jn. 3:9,10).

We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren (I Jn. 3:14).

J.C. Ryle states:

To be ‘born of God’ is to be the subject of an inward change of heart, so complete, that it is like passing into a new existence. It is the introduction into the human soul of a seed from heaven, a new principle, a Divine nature, a new will. Certainly it is no outward bodily alteration; but it is no less certain that it is an entire alteration of the inward man. It adds no new faculties to our minds; but it gives an entirely new bent and bias to our old ones. The tastes and opinions of one ‘born again,’ his views of sin, of the world, of the Bible, of God, and of Christ, are so thoroughly new, that he is to all intents and purposes what St. Paul calls a new creature. In fact, as the Church Catechism truly says, it is ‘a death unto sin and a new birth unto righteousness (J.C. Ryle, The Upper Room (Edinburgh: Banner, 1977), p. 137).

John MacArthur makes the following comments about the necessity for a changed life:

The church again is facing an age–old problem—the invasion of it by what has become known as ‘easy believism’ or ‘cheap grace’... People are told just to ‘believe in Jesus’ and everything will be settled forever...Our Lord recognized the potential problem of an easy believism, as indicated in John 8:30,31, ‘As He spoke these things, many came to believe in Him. Jesus therefore was saying to those Jews who had believed in Him, “If you abide in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine”.’ Jesus affirms that an easy believism is inadequate.
     The concept of easy believism is contrary also to the message of the New Testament epistles regarding salvation and assurance. The life of a true believer is never portrayed as a soft, do–as–you–please existence. The believer is called to a life of obedience, in which faith is verified by conduct. A life of obedience should flow from a Christian’s basic relationship to Christ. The Beatitudes call for a full self–examination. Such an approach Paul calls for in 2 Corinthians 13:5, ‘Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith.’ Prove it, he’s saying. If it were easy to point to an experience in the past to prove your salvation, why would Paul ask you to examine yourself? There must be something else here.
     You might be saying, ‘Well, I’m a Christian. I believe. I made a decision for Christ.’ A lot of people point to the past to verify their salvation, but did you know that the Bible never does that? It never points to the past. It always bases proof of real salvation on your life now. Examine (test in NASB) is a present tense continuous action, ‘Be constantly examining yourselves’...Righteousness is the issue. Righteousness sets us apart as converted. Righteousness simply means living right, living under God’s standards, by His definition—If we do not live this way, the genuineness of our salvation is open to suspicion—to others and to ourselves (usually in the form of insecurity). Hebrews 12:14 haunts me when I meet people who claim to be Christians but whose lives do not agree: ‘Sanctification without which no one will see the Lord.’ Second Timothy 2:19 says that the Lord knows them that are His. And who are they? Those that name the name of Christ and depart from iniquity. Titus 1: 16 says, ‘They profess to know God, but by their deeds they deny Him, being detestable and disobedient, and worthless for any good deeds.’ Profession means nothing without obedience, without righteousness, without holiness, without departing from iniquity. Once, I actually heard a pastor preach, ‘Isn’t it wonderful that you can come to Jesus Christ and you don’t have to change anything on the inside or the outside?’ Can that be true? Of course not. There had better be transformation. Of course we can come to Jesus just as we are, but if we come away from conversion just as we were, how can we call it conversion? Second Corinthians 5:17 sums it up well: ‘Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.’
     Being righteous does not mean that we never sin. First John 1:9 says Christians are constantly confessing their sin. That certainly indicates that we do sin. But it is sin that we deal with sooner or later. We confess it, we turn from it, we repent of it, we despise it. We do not love it. ‘If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him’ (I John 2:15)...You cannot prove that you are a Christian by waltzing down the same old path. Having made a decision, having walked an aisle, having gone into an inquiry room, or having read through a little book was never the biblical criterion for salvation. The biblical criterion for salvation is what Your life is like right now...In Matthew 5:13 Christ calls us the salt of the earth and in verse 14, the light of the world. If you are really a Christian, your testimony will be clearly, decisively distinguishable from the rest of the world.
     Don’t claim to be a Christian because five years ago you walked an aisle. Don’t claim to be a Christian because you once signed a card. Don’t try to tell God you’re a Christian because you went into a prayer room and talked to a counselor. And don’t even tell yourself you’re a Christian because some counselor told you that you were, because, at that moment, he didn’t know positively, either.
Assurance is the Holy Spirit’s work. He grants it by the inward testimony (Romans 8) and by the outer exhibit of works. Faith without works is dead, James says. Jesus puts it this way in John 8:31, ‘If you abide in My word, then You are truly disciples of Mine.’ He is saying you will be characterized by right thinking, obedience, right talking and right doing...Don’t lull yourself to sleep. Beloved, examine yourselves whether you are in the faith. Prove yourselves...If you have not committed your life to Christ and come into the kingdom on His terms, you had better do it while you can 
(John MacArthur, Kingdom Living Here and Now (Chicago: Moody, 1980), pp. 5-22).

When did your life change? When did you turn from living for yourself and surrender yourself unreservedly to Jesus as Lord to become his disciple? When did you come to him on his terms as he has defined it in Mark 8, John 12, Luke 14 and Matthew 11? Who do you live for, yourself or Jesus Christ? Who rules your life? What do you live for? This world and the fulfillment of your own interests, plans and ambitions or the kingdom of God?
     When did you deny self and take up a cross and die to yourself that you might follow Jesus Christ to be what He wants you to be, to go where He would have you go, to do what He would have you do?
     When did you forsake all to follow him? In other words, when did you repent? ‘Unless you repent, you will ... perish’ (Lk. 13:3).

 

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I will attempt to respond to your question later today, but acknowledge up front that after I do not everyone will agree with me because the deeper you go into such a study the more opportunity for disconnects on, usually minor, points ... that is just the way it is :-)

Lord Bless,

LT

the deeper you go into such a study the more opportunity for disconnects on, usually minor, points

Nahhhhhhhh, surely that doesn't happen.  :-o

Seek,

 

When looking at the subject of salvation in Scripture we have to start with how Scripture describes or refers to salvation. We will in this discussion break salvation into 2 divisions and see the 2 division has three tenses.

 

Salvation:

The two divisions are unsaved and saved. There are steps that God guides us through leading us to salvation. This is part of the repentance process, for repentance is more than just turning from sin and turning to God. It is literally a change of mind, or changed mind. Then comes a point in time where the offer of salvation is clear and we either receive or reject that offer. Whether we are given the liberty or it’s all God and we simply are doing as directed is a subject for another discussion. We simply know that there is a time when we go from unsaved to saved, from spiritually dead to spiritually alive. This coming alive is called regeneration or new birth.

 

Once we are saved the Bible describes salvation as past, present and future. These three tenses can be seen when relating to the regenerated person as follows. 1) Past relates to justification and regeneration. We are justified before God on the grounds of the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ when the blood of Christ is applied to us and covers our sin. We are regenerated by the Holy Spirit, brought from spiritually dead to spiritually alive. These two points (which one could breakdown further or add a few points to) are a onetime event. We move from lost to saved, spiritually dead to spiritually alive. 2) Present relates to our growth and can be seen by two primary words. These words are sanctification and discipleship. Here I am not talking about the Deeper Spirit Filled Life that uses the term sanctification in another sense, but am only focusing on the being set apart and now called to live for Jesus. This relates to growing in Christ. It requires a life that desires to follow Jesus. Growth does not happen by osmosis. God calls us to be disciples (students and followers of) and in this process we are called to obedience. 3) Future relates to what we call the glorification stage. This is where Christ returns and we receive new resurrected bodies fit for eternity and life in His presence.

 

Getting the tense right will help us to avoid some of the misconceptions that are often related to certain Scripture. Often arguments are based on a verse using the Scripture in the wrong tense. People will seek to apply future tense verses to past tense view of salvation or past tense verse to present tense view of salvation, etc.

 

Salvation by:

How are we saved? How is salvation maintained? Are we called to holy living or is it OK to live anyway we want?

 

We are saved by grace, not by works. This is very clear in Scripture. The best way to example this is twofold. 1) There is no evidence in Scripture that we in any way can work up to salvation. We cannot do a thousand good deeds and believe that we are any closer to God than before. The greatest humanitarian is just as lost as the most despicable person to ever live, because it is not our works or lifestyle that separates us from God. We are separated because of sin, our sin. No one is exempt from sin, for because of the fall we have all been cursed with being born into a sinful world and we have a sin nature. Because of the curse of the sin nature we are born spiritually dead (regarding children who die young, that is a subject for another debate). 2) When we understand that salvation has the past tense (which of course is current at the time of conversion for that specific moment and then becomes the past tense event for it is once and done) which means that the works that follow, or obedience, does not cause regeneration. We did not work to become regenerated, God regenerates us and because it is one and done our efforts cannot add to or take away from the regeneration event. The past tense event has nothing to do with works or obedience, to the exception of receiving Christ (again a debatable aspect for some as to who does what and why in that moment in time).

 

How is salvation maintained? This is probably where most of the differences arise. The Scripture teaches that we are saved by grace. Most agree with saved by grace, but then there comes the disconnect. Many will teach that we are saved by grace, but maintained by works. Of course they do not use the term, but the essence of their teaching is just that. We are saved by grace and that same salvation must be maintained by that same grace. This does not mean that there is not a right response to God that leads to a changed outward life. One of the purposes of regeneration is that we are to be transformed from the image of sinful man and into the image of Christ. Yes, this is a lifelong process, but if a person who claims to know Jesus has not changed after a significant time of claiming to walk with the Lord there is every reason to be suspect regarding their professed conversion. I will add that I find much of the argument over this point of retaining salvation a bit ludicrous. The transformed person is going to want to live for Christ and this desire will grow more abundantly over time. Will they fail? Yes, but that is not an excuse for failure. This leads to the third question in this point.

 

Are we called to holy living or is it OK to live anyway we want? The Bible clearly calls us to holy living as children of God. There is no way to argue against that. We can attempt to rationalize failure, but that is a waste of time. Failure is not to be rationalized, but repented over. We are to repent, regroup and move forward into Christ-likeness … holy living. Just as the saved are called to holy living there can be no separation in the idea that faith and obedience (which includes works, but is more than works). Faith that does not lead to a changed life (transformation) must be questioned as to whether it is faith at all. God does not call us and then leave us where we were. Change is not an option. The change I speak of here is not a religious person trying harder, but God working in us that our pleasure becomes pleasing Him. Again, this teaching is always met with the reality that people are at different levels … true, but we are not evaluating one to another, but specifically each life compared to that one life only in view of Jesus Is there evidence that this supposedly changed person is becoming Christ-like? Is there a difference in their life? Keep in mind that salvation includes regeneration (transformation) that leads to a changed life. There is no way around it, but many will attempt to rationalize a lot of this away and hope to make people feel better about themselves. How a person feels is secondary to whether or not they are going to spend eternity separated from God.

 

Works or Obedience:

Many like to focus on the word works. It is a Scriptural word, but I think the better focus in light of most discussions is obedience. Obedience includes works, but obedience is not defined by works. Obedience to many, like works, tends to be an itemized list and varies from group to group. The check list, whatever it is, is secondary to a much simpler approach. Obedience is surrender. It is a life that approaches everything with the understanding that it must be not my will but His will. What is His will? His will is for us to live moment by moment for Him in communion with Him. A basic question that can be asked is “Does this please God?” How do we know what pleases God. Scripture gives us plenty of teachings on what is acceptable and what is not acceptable to God. What about the gray areas? In most cases, for the child of God, the Holy Spirit will convince us of what is right or wrong. Usually a good rule of thumb is that when there is a hesitation we need to stop and examine why we hesitated. If it was OK and we knew it was OK would we have hesitated? Often at this point people will attempt to rationalize why it is OK instead of seeking God regarding this.

 

Thus, people can have their list and attempt to check it off. I believe life in Christ is much higher than a list.

 

Conclusion:

 At the end of the day this really is a heart issue. Has our heart been changed? Is it our heart’s desire to please Him? Are we desiring to surrender self-will and live for His will? Most will say yes, but the evidence of a changed life is often absent and this leaves their profession to be suspect as to whether they actually have been regenerated.

 

Some will say that we are not to judge. This is ridiculous and foolish. The Bible does not teach that we are not to judge. The main verse tossed out by the church and unsaved alike is taken out of context. We make all kinds of judgments in this life. How else would the disciples have known how to select someone who was full of faith and filled with the Holy Spirit? We are not the judge that sentences anyone to hell (Lake of Fire to be specific), but we do make judgments and one of the reasons for this judgment is so that we do not simply pat a person on the back because they say they prayed a prayer to receive Jesus, but rather we want to know, or at least help them know, for certain that they have met the living Jesus, have been truly regenerated, called to holy living and will one day receive the new bodies fitted for eternity.

 

Thus, instead of always trying to make everyone feel good about themselves and comfortable where they are we are to be calling and encouraging each other to a deeper walk with Christ … to holy living.

 

Sorry for the length, but this is not a simple subject and by no means has it been fully covered here. But, this is my response to your specific question(s) to me. I hope it helps.

 

Lord Bless,

LT

LOL  When you said you would try to answer, did you go off and write a book?  ;-)

I know we aren't to try and make everyone feel good, but at the same time, we are called to lift one another up and some people are just way more broken than others.  I took quite a while to see any change in me, but others saw it.  I can now see quite a lot of it, with about a million times more to go.  Yet the way I struggled with so much, people would've thought I wasn't saved or maybe even demon possessed.  :-o  God also reminds us to bear with those that are weak in faith.  And Paul spoke to those at Corinth that they should have been on meat by now but were still babes.  But he never accused them of not being saved. 

Scripture says if we remain in the Word we'll bear fruit and more fruit.  But we don't always notice the fruit or it just takes awhile.  I know Christians who have been faithful all their lives, they praise God, help people, are kind....yet they have hangups like everyone.  When they get mad over something, that's not fruitful.  And another who doesn't know them might see that and think they weren't saved.  But it's a judgment not based on seeing their life but only a small portion of it. 

I know that some people struggle so much because they face so much and yet have been taught so wrong.  The church teaches they have to be this way or that, and when they keep trying and not able to be what they think God wants them to be, they question their own salvation.  They pray and yet God seems silent so many times.  It is their time of testing to see if they stay or run.  Now I don't know if they run if that means they were never saved or lost their salvation.  I wonder if Job had given up if God would have had mercy knowing what he'd gone through or turned His back on Job because Job was a weak human and thought maybe God was mad at him and had put a curse on him.  And I can only say these things because I've been there, done that, and I invented the t-shirt.

As for works and obedience.  There is one way that often messes people up.  Many churches speak about working for God...ie: spending 24/7 at the church doing church work, getting involved with every function they have going.  For instance on tithing (yes, I had to go there)...

Who said the tithe was to be paid to a church building?  I know churches need operating money, but they often have way more than enough, while neighbors are doing without.  What of the one who puts their tithe toward other areas of obedience in God and helps others?  I cannot find it just yet, but there is a scripture where Jesus speaks to the Pharisees about how they give to the church while their parents go without.  So the church teaches tithing to the point it causes turmoil for some people.  And they feel as if they're being disobedient to God.  So they may start to question if they ever truly repented or just thought they were saved.  They've been beat down and have grown up to feel badly about themselves and it may be a lifetime of struggle to try and break free of that.  I'm not sure God gives up on someone who has a hard time coming out of a bondage that was placed on them over a lifetime.  But He's patient in working with them...with all of us. 

I've had many said they've seen a lot of growth.  Yet when I think of it...4 1/2 years seems such a long time and I thought I should be a lot further along than I am.  It's all our perspective on things. 

At the end of the day this really is a heart issue. Has out heart been changed? Is it our heart’s desire to please Him?

I think Paul covered that one very well: 

Romans 7:20-23  Now if I do what I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but it is the sin that lives in me.  So I discover this principle: When I want to do what is good, evil is with me.  For in my inner self I joyfully agree with God’s law.  But I see a different law in the parts of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and taking me prisoner to the law of sin in the parts of my body.

Paul says he WANTS to do good and his inner self (heart, mind) agrees with God's law, but evil is with him. 

I know there's a lot to scripture and everything has to be taken into context throughout, but perhaps where one excels in one area, another does so in another area?  One is better at rebuking and training and another at encouraging? Paul said he had become all things to all people.  Christ Himself even took compassion on those in their sins.  His largest issues was with those who sought to subvert His Word, to lead people astray, holier than thou Pharisees who said do as I say and not as I do.  Yet He showed mercy and grace on many sinners and many with weak faith.

Anyway, the issue I'm praying on right now is a church.  I won't go into it further, but been seeking God's guidance and don't want to take the wrong step.

Yeah, I know. I don’t lke long responses, but this one I could not attempt to respond to in short fashion :-)

 

I know we aren't to try and make everyone feel good, but at the same time, we are called to lift one another up and some people are just way more broken than others.  I took quite a while to see any change in me, but others saw it.  I can now see quite a lot of it, with about a million times more to go.  Yet the way I struggled with so much, people would've thought I wasn't saved or maybe even demon possessed.  :-o  God also reminds us to bear with those that are weak in faith.  And Paul spoke to those at Corinth that they should have been on meat by now but were still babes.  But he never accused them of not being saved. 

I purposely chose my word carefully. I did not say they were not saved, but that their salvation is “suspect.” This idea of it being suspect is not for my benefit, but for their benefit, unless I was selecting an elder for the church I pastor. Also, we need to be careful when it comes to the opinion of the majority, for in a group that makes up the majority you will find that even there some will not be saved, but only following religion. This is why we have to evaluate ourselves based on Scripture and specifically compared to Jesus. Another point I made was that we do not encourage people just to make them feel good and leave them in the status quo. We are to be patient, but yet calling them to holy living. We are to celebrate their victories along the way, but at no point overlook the call to holy living.

 

Scripture says if we remain in the Word we'll bear fruit and more fruit.  But we don't always notice the fruit or it just takes awhile.  I know Christians who have been faithful all their lives, they praise God, help people, are kind....yet they have hangups like everyone.  When they get mad over something, that's not fruitful.  And another who doesn't know them might see that and think they weren't saved.  But it's a judgment not based on seeing their life but only a small portion of it. 

Yes, you cannot make a judgment based on a snapshot. That is why I stated over a period of time. We do not look at the failures to determine the growth as much as the fruit. Is there fruit to be seen? Is the life changing? If after years there is no difference in the person’s life, not do they periodically fail, one would have to view their salvation claim as suspect.

 

I know that some people struggle so much because they face so much and yet have been taught so wrong.  The church teaches they have to be this way or that, and when they keep trying and not able to be what they think God wants them to be, they question their own salvation.  They pray and yet God seems silent so many times.  It is their time of testing to see if they stay or run.  Now I don't know if they run if that means they were never saved or lost their salvation.  I wonder if Job had given up if God would have had mercy knowing what he'd gone through or turned His back on Job because Job was a weak human and thought maybe God was mad at him and had put a curse on him.  And I can only say these things because I've been there, done that, and I invented the t-shirt.

First regarding Job, God knew he would not fail. The question cannot be answered as to how God would have responded, because it was not going to happen. Though Job had freewill (liberty) God already knew the outcome before allowing Satan access to Job. Regarding the people who struggle it is impossible to answer as each person and each situation is unique. I am sure there are numerous combinations of answers, but the reality that regeneration means change cannot be ignored. Regardless if a person because of fear shrinks back there must be a transformation within that person wrought by God that leads to a changed life whether tomorrow or years ahead. The simple point is change must take place and even a month or a year may only serve to be a snapshot of the person’s whole existence. Keep in mind that the idea of calling the salvation experience suspect is not to toss them away, but to effectually help them. One of the greatest tragedies we can ever commit is to proclaim a lost person as saved when they are not.

 

As for works and obedience.  There is one way that often messes people up.  Many churches speak about working for God...ie: spending 24/7 at the church doing church work, getting involved with every function they have going.  For instance on tithing (yes, I had to go there)...

When they do that they are wrong. That is not what it means to live for Jesus. We are called to be obedient to Jesus and called to “be” the church. There is a place for the organized church, but our loyalty is to Christ.

 

Who said the tithe was to be paid to a church building?  I know churches need operating money, but they often have way more than enough, while neighbors are doing without.  What of the one who puts their tithe toward other areas of obedience in God and helps others?  I cannot find it just yet, but there is a scripture where Jesus speaks to the Pharisees about how they give to the church while their parents go without.  So the church teaches tithing to the point it causes turmoil for some people.  And they feel as if they're being disobedient to God.  So they may start to question if they ever truly repented or just thought they were saved.  They've been beat down and have grown up to feel badly about themselves and it may be a lifetime of struggle to try and break free of that.  I'm not sure God gives up on someone who has a hard time coming out of a bondage that was placed on them over a lifetime.  But He's patient in working with them...with all of us. 

Sorry, but bad analogy to use when engaging me. I do not believe the tithe is Scriptural today. We are called to be cheerful givers and we will want to further the work, but the legalism of the tithe is not for today. It is a very misunderstood subject and misapplied to the NT believer.

Even the person who has been in bondage will show signs of growth when coming out of that bondage.

 

I've had many said they've seen a lot of growth.  Yet when I think of it...4 1/2 years seems such a long time and I thought I should be a lot further along than I am.  It's all our perspective on things. 

Yes, perspective is everything in this sense. 4 ½ years is a very short time. I find it interesting that when some people (a lot actually) are saved they have this fire that drives them forward and they usually view themselves as giant killers. Somewhere around year two they get a stark awakening as to how immature they are and how much more they have to grow. What changes? Somewhere along the way they come to realize that they are not to be evaluating themselves with others, but compare themselves to Jesus. This new enlightenment is a good thing and they transition from being a sprinter to a marathon runner. It is a long race, lifelong. Yes, there is the opposite side too. Some get saved and feel inferior because they evaluate themselves compared to others and feel they should be further and are not , etc …

 

At the end of the day this really is a heart issue. Has out heart been changed? Is it our heart’s desire to please Him?

 

I think Paul covered that one very well: 

Romans 7:20-23  Now if I do what I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but it is the sin that lives in me.  So I discover this principle: When I want to do what is good, evil is with me.  For in my inner self I joyfully agree with God’s law.  But I see a different law in the parts of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and taking me prisoner to the law of sin in the parts of my body.

 

Paul says he WANTS to do good and his inner self (heart, mind) agrees with God's law, but evil is with him. 

We still exist in the sinful flesh. There is a war and the battle is over the control of the mind.

 

I know there's a lot to scripture and everything has to be taken into context throughout, but perhaps where one excels in one area, another does so in another area?  One is better at rebuking and training and another at encouraging? Paul said he had become all things to all people.  Christ Himself even took compassion on those in their sins.  His largest issues was with those who sought to subvert His Word, to lead people astray, holier than thou Pharisees who said do as I say and not as I do.  Yet He showed mercy and grace on many sinners and many with weak faith.

The Pharisees were not holier than thou, they only thought they were. This error on their part should not deter us from striving to live holy lives. If we are living holy lives we will not be pointing people to ourselves and proclaiming how holy we are, but rather people will see a difference in us on their own and we will be pointing people to Jesus. A person who is growing in holiness will recognize how unholy they are because they are evaluating themselves in light of Jesus’ holiness. When Jesus is the model we will always have a somber reminder of how far we fall short, but yet we can take time and look back down the mountain once in a while to see how far we have come. If we are still walking around the base camp after years of professing to be a follower of Jesus our faith will be suspect. Even if the mountain of life is hard there must be signs of advancement towards the pinnacle which is Jesus.

 

Anyway, the issue I’m praying on right now is a church.  I won’t go into it further, but been seeking God’s guidance and don’t want to take the wrong step.

That is a good approach. In time God will make it clear to you.

 

Lord Bless,

LT

You wrote: "The Pharisees were not holier than thou, they only thought they were. This error on their part should not deter us from striving to live holy lives."

I, too, believe that the Pharisees truly thought they were living righteously. It's why they became so angry when Jesus pointed it out to them that none of them carried out the law, John 7:18-19. 

You wrote: "If we are living holy lives we will not be pointing people to ourselves and proclaiming how holy we are, but rather people will see a difference in us on their own and we will be pointing people to Jesus."

This is where I often end up stumbling. I've never minimized sin and in my past, grace was very much minimized. In another comment, elsewere, you said, "God does demand perfection (holiness) and at the same time He has extended grace. Grace, nor God's love, remove the call to holiness. Though we fail that does not minimize the offense before God and yet He has given grace to cover us when we are walking with Him." http://www.allaboutgod.net/forum/topics/anxiety?commentId=1383940%3...

I'm still suffering from the effects of years and years of legalism. I very much see and am conscious of my sin and hate it and, therefore, to be constantly admonished about my own sinfulness isn't helping me. I understand why, when we see someone sinning who will not acknowledge their sin or are minimizing it, then, by all means, we are called to correct and rebuke. But when a soul has acknowledged, confessed, and is seeking to overcome, is it really necessary to keep rebuking them? When is it time to help someone build their broken down walls back up? My faith is being re-built from the foundation up. Isn't it time that we all realize that to minimize grace is just as bad as it is to minimize sin?

You wrote: "A person who is growing in holiness will recognize how unholy they are because they are evaluating themselves in light of Jesus’ holiness. When Jesus is the model we will always have a somber reminder of how far we fall short, but yet we can take time and look back down the mountain once in a while to see how far we have come."

I made a similar comment in this discussion stating that when I look into the mirror of God's Word, it shows me my reflection, and there's no way that I can say I'm fine, I look like Jesus. Instead, every day, it shows me another one of my errors that I need to correct, another sin that I need to overcome, another promise that I haven't yet claimed, another belief that was wrong, another bad attitude in myself, or wrong pattern of thinking that I wasn't even aware of or able to identify before in myself, a new truth about God that I didn't know. But I'd like to add that I think, if anyone claims to have no sin, they must be rationalizing away sin, for I can't see how anyone could look into the mirror of God's Word and not feel conviction. 

I admit that the thought crosses my mind quite a bit that people are saying to me that they are holier than I am. I know it's likely rooted in my being overly sensitive and taking things personally. It's been difficult for me to overcome being that way, as well.

You wrote: "If we are still walking around the base camp after years of professing to be a follower of Jesus our faith will be suspect. Even if the mountain of life is hard there must be signs of advancement towards the pinnacle which is Jesus."

I can recognize some advancement in myself, but not enough, but I also have learned that obedience and good works can be unseen in someone's life but that doesn't mean the obedience and works aren't there. In fact, in Matthew 6:1-6, we are told to pray and give in secret. We can please God in some ways that no one else will ever know, or many of the good works and ways that we overcome temptation and are obedient in a day's time might go unobserved by others. On the other hand, works might be done with the wrong motive and those seeing them can mis-judge the works as being good when actually the motive could be to impress others or something else. 

If someone shows evidence of a changed life, then falls into repetitive sin, such as returning to drug abuse (not a problem I have but just an example I'm using of habitual sin) then at what point can we who are observing them disprove their salvation? If they die from an overdose before they become clean and sober again? Shall we just treat everyone who commits even the very smallest of sins (not that any sin is small in God's POV, but say the sin of murmuring as compared to murder) as if that person is lost?

Amanda,


I'm still suffering from the effects of years and years of legalism. I very much see and am conscious of my sin and hate it and, therefore, to be constantly admonished about my own sinfulness isn't helping me. I understand why, when we see someone sinning who will not acknowledge their sin or are minimizing it, then, by all means, we are called to correct and rebuke. But when a soul has acknowledged, confessed, and is seeking to overcome, is it really necessary to keep rebuking them.

What did Jesus say to the woman in John 8. He did not ignore her sin and told her to go and sin no more. We never ignore sin, turn a blind eye to it. While this is true the purpose for rebuke and correcting is not condemnation, but to help the person overcome. Jesus did not condemn her then and at the same time called her to live right. Now, you have been exposed to people in your past that have used sin as a sledgehammer to beat you down, but it does not have to be that way. One rarely overcomes sin without battling it. There is a difference between a person, using the mountain climbing image, standing on the next ledge up looking down at you telling you that you can’t make it and them telling you can, but not if you keep attempting to do it the wrong way day after day.

 

 When is it time to help someone build their broken down walls back up?

You do both at the same time in the right measure. Sin must be addressed, never ignored, and encouragement must be extended. It is not an either or. Do you read the Bible skipping over verses speaking about sin and read only the encouraging words? I sure hope not. The whole counsel of God’s Word brings both a recognition of sin and a call to holy living. One will never move toward holiness unless sin is addressed and yes it may be a daily addressing.

 

My faith is being re-built from the foundation up. Isn't it time that we all realize that to minimize grace is just as bad as it is to minimize sin?
No one is minimizing grace, but grace is given so that we may live for Him and that means moving toward Christ-likeness. Absence of this moving in the direction of Christ-likeness is a cause for concern, especially to the person in question.


You wrote: "A person who is growing in holiness will recognize how unholy they are because they are evaluating themselves in light of Jesus’ holiness. When Jesus is the model we will always have a somber reminder of how far we fall short, but yet we can take time and look back down the mountain once in a while to see how far we have come."

I made a similar comment in this discussion stating that when I look into the mirror of God's Word, it shows me my reflection, and there's no way that I can say I'm fine, I look like Jesus.

No one can take an honest look in His Word and think they are fine, as in perfected, or believe they look just like Jesus. If they do they are delusional. What one should see is that the image of Christ in them is starting to come into focus. This focus should be getting sharper as the days go by. Sin retards that clarity in the Child of God.

 

 Instead, every day, it shows me another one of my errors that I need to correct, another sin that I need to overcome, another promise that I haven't yet claimed, another belief that was wrong, another bad attitude in myself, or wrong pattern of thinking that I wasn't even aware of or able to identify before in myself, a new truth about God that I didn't know.

Praise God that you are seeing these things!!! Many look to the Word and close their eyes to the implications and application of God’s Word to their life.

 

But I'd like to add that I think, if anyone claims to have no sin, they must be rationalizing away sin, for I can't see how anyone could look into the mirror of God's Word and not feel conviction. 
Many will look and ignore God’s Word. The one who is serious about the truth will be impacted in a great way.


You wrote: "If we are still walking around the base camp after years of professing to be a follower of Jesus our faith will be suspect. Even if the mountain of life is hard there must be signs of advancement towards the pinnacle which is Jesus."

I can recognize some advancement in myself, but not enough,

Based on whose standard and timeline is your growth to this point not enough. Is it based on your timeline, someone else’s timeline or God’s timeline? If it is a marathon, which it is, you cannot run it as a sprinter.

 

 but I also have learned that obedience and good works can be unseen in someone's life but that doesn't mean the obedience and works aren't there.

That is a fact. Yet, the goal is not a checklist, but Christ-likeness. If one is not growing in Christ-likeness they have reason to be concerned. Specific acts may be done in secret, but a way of life, the demeanor of the person will be evident to themselves and others around them who know them. We are not talking about the person that sees you 20 minutes a month passing through the grocery line, but before people who know you.

 

On the other hand, works might be done with the wrong motive and those seeing them can mis-judge the works as being good when actually the motive could be to impress others or something else. 
A person can fake religion, but cannot sustain a forgery of Christ-likeness.


If someone shows evidence of a changed life, then falls into repetitive sin, such as returning to drug abuse (not a problem I have but just an example I'm using of habitual sin) then at what point can we who are observing them disprove their salvation? If they die from an overdose before they become clean and sober again? Shall we just treat everyone who commits even the very smallest of sins (not that any sin is small in God's POV, but say the sin of murmuring as compared to murder) as if that person is lost?

I will repeat what I said early stated a little differently. In the example you give it would give us and the person cause to suspect the validity of their salvation claim, but we are not the judge of who goes to be with the Lord and who is separated from Him forever. Yet, while there is breath in the life we are to call such into question so the person can be sure of their eternal destination and not wait until they get to the other side where there is no more opportunity before them.

 

Lord Bless,

LT

You wrote: "There is a difference between a person, using the mountain climbing image, standing on the next ledge up looking down at you telling you that you can’t make it and them telling you can, but not if you keep attempting to do it the wrong way day after day."

What is the right way to do it? Who decides how someone is to treat someone else who is on a lower ledge? If I catch certain phrases or wording in the way someone else is stating their belief that cause me to be concerned that the person could be trusting in works and obedience to inherit eternal life instead of fully trusting in the blood and righteousness of Jesus and giving obedience its proper place, then would it be right for me to turn a blind eye to it? 

You wrote: "You do both at the same time in the right measure. Sin must be addressed, never ignored, and encouragement must be extended."

I already do both. It's just that I've been beat down so much for sin and with "turn or burn" admonitions that I don't ever want to do that to others. I'd rather learn more about how to do it the way it's stated in 2 Timothy 2:25.

You wrote: "No one is minimizing grace, but grace is given so that we may live for Him and that means moving toward Christ-likeness."

Sorry, but some do minimize grace. Every congregation I've attended in the past has minimized it. It's true that since I came to this site I've been exposed more to the teachings of grace, but it happens here, too (not saying you do it.)

You wrote: "Based on whose standard and timeline is your growth to this point not enough. Is it based on your timeline, someone else’s timeline or God’s timeline? If it is a marathon, which it is, you cannot run it as a sprinter."

It confuses me to be told that Jesus is my comparison and then to have others rebuke me because I'm not already standing on that same ledge with them, from their POV of me. (Again, not saying you.) 

Regeneration is the beginning and glorification is the end, and sanctification will be complete in the moment when we see Christ and are instantly conformed perfectly to His image (1 John 3:2; 1 Corinthians 13:12). In the interim, all true believers are being sanctified--conformed gradually to the image of Christ. This doesn't mean they live perfectly sinless, nor can it mean that random, individual acts of sin mean we are lost, but I certainly understand that, if someone isn't showing any change or breaking free from any bondages or have a careless attitude about sinning, with no remorse, then they probably aren't regenerated. 

You wrote: "Yet, while there is breath in the life we are to call such into question so the person can be sure of their eternal destination and not wait until they get to the other side where there is no more opportunity before them."

This can be applied, as well, to the one who could be trusting in their own righteousness instead of in Him for salvation. When should we stop questioning that? I'm very thankful you questioned me.

Amanda,


What is the right way to do it? Who decides how someone is to treat someone else who is on a lower ledge?

We should always act with the best interest of the other person at the heart of our actions. That means pride and my need to be right have to be set aside … or at least should be.

 

 If I catch certain phrases or wording in the way someone else is stating their belief that cause me to be concerned that the person could be trusting in works and obedience to inherit eternal life instead of fully trusting in the blood and righteousness of Jesus and giving obedience its proper place, then would it be right for me to turn a blind eye to it? 
We never turn a blind eye, but there are proper times and places for responses. Walking down the street I do not stop every person I see who sins and try to rebuke them. We also need to be sure that what we think we are seeing is what we actually are seeing.


You wrote: "You do both at the same time in the right measure. Sin must be addressed, never ignored, and encouragement must be extended."

I already do both. It's just that I've been beat down so much for sin and with "turn or burn" admonitions that I don't ever want to do that to others. I'd rather learn more about how to do it the way it's stated in 2 Timothy 2:25.

I would repeat my first comment in this response. We must always have their interest at heart and be seeking to set aside our pride and need to be right. Sometimes our need to be right masks itself under the guise of a desire to not be wrong. Sounds better, but only is better if it is a true search for truth and not a cover for pride.


You wrote: "No one is minimizing grace, but grace is given so that we may live for Him and that means moving toward Christ-likeness."

Sorry, but some do minimize grace. Every congregation I've attended in the past has minimized it. It's true that since I came to this site I've been exposed more to the teachings of grace, but it happens here, too (not saying you do it.)

Yes, you are right. I did not mean at-large, but was referring to here in this discussion and thus I failed to put it in the proper context.


You wrote: "Based on whose standard and timeline is your growth to this point not enough. Is it based on your timeline, someone else’s timeline or God’s timeline? If it is a marathon, which it is, you cannot run it as a sprinter."

It confuses me to be told that Jesus is my comparison and then to have others rebuke me because I'm not already standing on that same ledge with them, from their POV of me. (Again, not saying you.) 
This is where you give to much credibility and power to others regarding your life. In some cases you don’t want to follow certain people unto their ledge because it is not a move up, but rather a move away. This is one of my pet-peeves with a particular TV evangelist. He makes fun of those who do not believe like him. If he is right then he should be seeking to enlighten and draw other, not alienate them.

You wrote: "Yet, while there is breath in the life we are to call such into question so the person can be sure of their eternal destination and not wait until they get to the other side where there is no more opportunity before them."

This can be applied, as well, to the one who could be trusting in their own righteousness instead of in Him for salvation. When should we stop questioning that? I'm very thankful you questioned me.

I go to a question I have posed in other discussions. The person needs to search their heart to see if they love Jesus. That can be followed up with two more questions. Do you desire to please Him and do you have assurance. Self-performance based religiosity will lack any assurance beyond what one can boast regarding self. If the I word pops up too much then there is a good chance they are trusting in that same “I” person.

 

Me question you? I have no idea as to what you are talking about :-)

 

Kidding aside. The questions posed have never been to prove anything to me about you, but rather to help you seek for assurance regarding your real relationship with Him. Whether you realize it or not you have moved from great fear and doubt to proclaiming assurance in Him. That is a monumental shift … PTL!!!

 

Lord Bless,

LT

You wrote: "We should always act with the best interest of the other person at the heart of our actions. That means pride and my need to be right have to be set aside … or at least should be." 

I've relinquished my need to be right for my need to be true. I don't want to misrepresent God or God's Word. That wouldn't bring glory to God. God is greatly glorified in the truth of the Gospel of Christ. It's important to me for others to give Christ the credit due Him. I'm afraid I have failed for so many years to give Him that glory, and I can't go back now. Giving God all the glory is very important to me now. At the same time, I know I'm failing to do it well.

You wrote: "We never turn a blind eye, but there are proper times and places for responses. Walking down the street I do not stop every person I see who sins and try to rebuke them. We also need to be sure that what we think we are seeing is what we actually are seeing."

I understand the concept of projection. At times we see in others what we ourselves are more guilty of but we deny its presence in us while attributing it to others, but the others might not even be guilty of it or they might be but to a much smaller degree. I believe Jesus called it the splinter/beam principle. Anymore, I ask myself the question if I'm behaving like the people I'm upset with. For instance, if I think that's self righteous, or that's selfish, or that's insincere, or that's jealousy, I examine myself for why that thought is surfacing. It could be that I see it in the other person because I have that problem or characteristic, too. This isn't to say we shouldn't point out a sin in someone. I think of Galatians 6:1, "Dear brothers and sisters, if another believer is overcome by some sin, you who are godly should gently and humbly help that person back onto the right path. And be careful not to fall into the same temptation yourself." Sometimes the way we correct others can come across with a holier than thou attitude. I still struggle with self righteousness. Perhaps those who strongly rebuke people for sinning are struggling with their own disobedience more than they want to admit. I don't want to alienate people, but I also want to isolate from people. 

Thanks for the kind words. The exchange was healthy. I don't feel like jumping off the ledge completely :)

To your last comment in the posting:

You're welcome ... yep ... and that's a good thing :-)

Just a follow-up on two things you said that I wanted to address:

You wrote: "Kidding aside. The questions posed have never been to prove anything to me about you, but rather to help you seek for assurance regarding your real relationship with Him."

My motive has been the same in my questioning of those whom I'm concerned that could be trusting in works and obedience to inherit eternal life instead of fully trusting in the blood and righteousness of Jesus and giving the Lord full credit for salvation that He has provided at great cost to Himself, and all glory for it is due to Him alone. As you said regarding sin, I ask the same, isn't it right to call such into question and not wait until they get to the other side where there is no more opportunity before them but where they might hear the words, I never knew you?

I have meant no harm.

You said, "What did Jesus say to the woman in John 8. He did not ignore her sin and told her to go and sin no more."

We don't know if she did or didn't sin anymore, but I ask again, if a sin has already been acknowledged and confessed, and one is seeking to overcome it, is it really necessary to keep rebuking them about it? 
What makes it sledgehammering, and what makes it helping someone overcome? When is it only correcting and not condemning? In the past, when I was told salvation could be lost for sinning, wasn't that condemnation?

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