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Greetings all,

 

I am curious regarding people's POV on this subject.

 

I'll present four views, but am most interested in the fourth.

 

Four conditions:

1) A person is saved and they know it.

2) A person is not saved and they know it.

3) A person thinks they are saved, but are not saved.

4) A person is saved, but does not know it.

 

Lord BLess,

LT

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Hi Janie,

I just wanted to say that it is a normal thing for believers to doubt sometimes...That's why God gave us the armor (Eph 6:10-18)

Eph 6:10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of His might.
Eph 6:11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil.
Eph 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.
Eph 6:13 Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you will be able to resist in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm.
Eph 6:14 Stand firm therefore, HAVING GIRDED YOUR LOINS WITH TRUTH, and HAVING PUT ON THE BREASTPLATE OF RIGHTEOUSNESS,
Eph 6:15 and having shod YOUR FEET WITH THE PREPARATION OF THE GOSPEL OF PEACE;
Eph 6:16 in addition to all, taking up the shield of faith with which you will be able to extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one.
Eph 6:17 And take THE HELMET OF SALVATION, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.
Eph 6:18 With all prayer and petition pray at all times in the Spirit, and with this in view, be on the alert with all perseverance and petition for all the saints,

because God wants us to know that we can be secure in Him. Even though those feelings of doubt do come, we must trust God that what HE says is true, and 'take every thought captive (2 Cor 10:5)

2Cr 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh,
2Cr 10:4 for the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but divinely powerful for the destruction of fortresses.
2Cr 10:5 We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ,
2Cr 10:6 and we are ready to punish all disobedience, whenever your obedience is complete.
2Cr 10:7 You are looking at things as they are outwardly. If anyone is confident in himself that he is Christ's, let him consider this again within himself, that just as he is Christ's, so also are we.

We also believe that God loves us, because God's Word says it is so. That's hard for many people because we have all felt unlovable and unloved in our lives at one point or another in this difficult world. As I read God's Word, I see that HE loves me too..even though the world has often told me that no one loves me....I know that God loves me..just the same as He loves you
(here's the same verse--3 different versions)
Gal 2:6 And the leaders of the church who were there had nothing to add to what I was preaching. (By the way, their reputation as great leaders made no difference to me, for God has no favorites.) NLT
Gal 2:6 But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person:) for they who seemed [to be somewhat] in conference added nothing to me: KJV
Gal 2:6 But from those who were of high reputation (what they were makes no difference to me; God shows no partiality)—well, those who were of reputation contributed nothing to me. NASB


Janie, God created you..and He doesn't make mistakes, and He does not have favorites. Sometimes I joke that I am His favorite...but that's only a joke....and also I have received His Love. I have realized that He loves me because of who HE is...not because of who I am.

No one and NOTHING can separate us from His Love....
Rom 8:38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
Rom 8:39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

You are right, a person cannot be saved by saying a simple prayer, and then walking off and continuing to live a sinful life. However..the person who does that does not generally sign onto an 'AAG' internet website and continue to seek and learn.

However, some people do actually experience a heart shift that way (simple prayer)....only by Power of God..God knows our hearts.

It is extremely important to remain in fellowship, pray, and study God's Word.. When we do this we will slowly begin to experience the 'Fruits of the Spirit' and others will notice a change in us...

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering (patience), gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

This is especially important in the crazy fast paced world we live in...this world has many distraction that the people in the 'days of old' did not have. We have new false teachings such as 'evolution' which have claimed a large portion of 'souls' (I know that's not you..just an example)... we need to pray, study scripture, and hang out with believers so that we continue to learn and grow. Sometimes it is difficult for people to be in fellowship in their day to day lives...that is one reason why this website is here. We hope though, that it will encourage people to eventually find a fellowship community in addition to being a member here..if at all possible.

I believe that God is pursuing you in a Mighty way.

Love in Christ, Carla
The fourth condition applies to me.

I'm saved but I don't know it.

It'll be a nice surprise when I get to heaven and meet the Lord Almighty!
Dear Imperator,

In saying that you are saved but don't know it....aren't you actually saying that you know it? ;) it's a bit of a circular argument... :)

God wants us to be absolutely assured of our Salvation. It is not prideful to be assured of your Salvation.
Would your own parents want you guessing as to whether you belong to them or not.
Here are three articles to study.... :)


Article #1
Question: "How can I have assurance of my salvation?"

Answer: How can you know for sure if you are saved? Consider 1 John 5:11-13: “And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.” Who is it that has the Son? It is those who have believed in Him and accepted Him (John 1:12). If you have Jesus, you have life. Not temporary life, but eternal.

God wants us to have assurance of our salvation. We cannot live our Christian lives wondering and worrying each day whether or not we are truly saved. That is why the Bible makes the plan of salvation so clear. Believe in Jesus Christ and you will be saved (John 3:16; Acts 16:31). Do you believe that Jesus is the Savior, that He died to pay the penalty for your sins (Romans 5:8; 2 Corinthians 5:21)? Are you trusting Him alone for salvation? If your answer is yes, you are saved! Assurance means “having been put beyond all doubt.” By taking God's Word to heart, you can “put beyond all doubt” the fact and reality of your eternal salvation.

Jesus Himself affirms this regarding those who have believed in Him: “I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand” (John 10:28-29). Eternal life is just that—eternal. There is no one, not even yourself, who can take Christ's God-given gift of salvation away from you.

We hide God's Word in our hearts so that we do not sin against Him (Psalm 119:11), and this includes the sin of doubt. Take joy in what God's Word is saying to you, that instead of doubting we can live with confidence! We can have the assurance from Christ's own Word that our salvation will never be in question. Our assurance is based on God's love for us through Jesus Christ.

Recommended Resource: Eternal Security by Charles Stanley.

Article #2
Question: "What does it mean to be a born again Christian?"

Answer: What does it mean to be a born again Christian? The classic passage from the Bible that answers this question is John 3:1-21. The Lord Jesus Christ is talking to Nicodemus, a prominent Pharisee and member of the Sanhedrin (a ruler of the Jews). Nicodemus had come to Jesus at night. Nicodemus had questions to ask Jesus.

As Jesus talked with Nicodemus, He said, “’I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.’ ‘How can a man be born when he is old?’ Nicodemus asked. ‘Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb to be born!’ Jesus answered, ‘I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again’” (John 3:3-7).

The phrase "born again" literally means "born from above." Nicodemus had a real need. He needed a change of his heart—a spiritual transformation. New birth, being born again, is an act of God whereby eternal life is imparted to the person who believes (2 Corinthians 5:17; Titus 3:5; 1 Peter 1:3; 1 John 2:29; 3:9; 4:7; 5:1-4, 18). John 1:12,13 indicates that "born again" also carries the idea "to become children of God" through trust in the name of Jesus Christ.

The question logically comes, "Why does a person need to be born again?" The Apostle Paul in Ephesians 2:1 says, "And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins..." (NKJV). To the Romans in Romans 3:23, the Apostle wrote, "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." So, a person needs to be born again in order to have their sins forgiven and have a relationship with God.

How does that come to be? Ephesians 2:8-9 states, "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast." When one is "saved," he/she has been born again, spiritually renewed, and is now a child of God by right of new birth. Trusting in Jesus Christ, the One who paid the penalty of sin when He died on the cross, is what it means to be "born again" spiritually. "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation: the old has gone, the new has come!" (2 Corinthians 5:17).

If you have never trusted in the Lord Jesus Christ as your Savior, will you consider the prompting of the Holy Spirit as He speaks to your heart? You need to be born again. Will you pray the prayer of repentance and become a new creation in Christ today? "Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God" (John 1:12-13).

If you want to accept Jesus Christ as your Savior and be born again, here is a sample prayer. Remember, saying this prayer or any other prayer will not save you. It is only trusting in Christ that can save you from sin. This prayer is simply a way to express to God your faith in Him and thank Him for providing for your salvation. "God, I know that I have sinned against you and am deserving of punishment. But Jesus Christ took the punishment that I deserve so that through faith in Him I could be forgiven. I place my trust in You for salvation. Thank You for Your wonderful grace and forgiveness—the gift of eternal life! Amen!"

*******************************************************************************************************************************

I don't know if it is possible for a person to be saved and not know it. I wouldn't say definitely 'yes' that is so. Scripture seems to point to the fact of assurance of our salvation. A person who is saved wants to live for Christ, and will continually pray and seek Him as we compare ourselves to the life Jesus lived while He was here. Those who are saved will also experience God's discipline when they sin. (Hebrews 12:5-11)

The question in article #1....Are you trusting Him alone for salvation? means...that His work on the cross was and is sufficient for our Salvation. We are saved by faith...not by works. Our works come into play after Salvation has taken place. Our works show the evidence of our Salvation because of our Love for the Lord...not because we are striving to be 'good people' or 'good enough'. We know that only Jesus is good enough...that's why we trust in Him....He then empowers us to walk in His Power....this is not by miracles (although sometimes people are given the ability to heal etc...)...but His Power by living a life of humility, forgiveness and the greatest of all..which is Love. He gives us the desire to want to be obedient and He enables us to do so. We cannot accomplish this in our own strength. We are also told to 'work out our salvation with 'fear and trembling'.. this is not to instill 'fear' in us,,but rather a reverent Awe of who God is...

One more Article....#3

Question: "What does it mean to work out salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12)?"

Answer: In Philippians 2:12-13, Paul writes “Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed – not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence – continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his purpose.”

This text is often misused to instill fear into people, warning them that it means that they can lose salvation. What does it mean to work out our salvation with fear and trembling? It does not seem likely that Paul could have meant literally that they were to live in a continuous condition of nervousness and anxiety. After all, the very same Spirit inspired Paul to write that “God did not give us a spirit of timidity, but a spirit of power, of love and of self-discipline” (2 Timothy 1:7). The Greek word translated ‘fear’ in this context can equally mean ‘reverence’ or ‘respect.’ When Paul writes to the Corinthians and reports that Titus had been encouraged and refreshed by their reception of him, he goes on to say that the Corinthian Christians received him with ‘fear and trembling’ (2 Corinthians 7:15). It makes little sense that a Christian minister would be encouraged and refreshed by a display of nervous anxiety! Rather Titus was delighted by their obedience to the God they revered.

The sense in which we are to work out our salvation in fear and trembling is twofold. First, the Greek verb rendered “work out” means to continually work to bring something to completion or fruition. We do this by actively pursuing obedience in the process of sanctification, which Paul explains further in the next chapter of Philippians. He describes himself as “straining” and “pressing on” toward the goal of Christlikeness (Philippians 3:13-14). The “trembling” he experiences is the attitude Christians are to have in pursuing this goal—a healthy fear of offending God through disobedience and an awe and respect for His majesty and holiness. ‘Trembling’ can also refer to a shaking due to weakness, but this is a weakness of higher purpose, one which brings us to a state of dependency on God. Obedience and submission to the God we revere and respect is our “reasonable service” (Romans 12:1-2) and brings great joy. Psalm 2:11 sums it up perfectly: “Serve the LORD with fear and rejoice with trembling.” We work out our salvation by going to the very source of our salvation—the Word of God—wherein we renew our hearts and minds (Romans 12:1-2), coming into His presence with a spirit of reverence and awe.

Recommended Resource: Eternal Security by Charles Stanley.

I know this is a lot to read. Thank you for reading it.

Blessings, Carla
I think a person can be saved and not know it if they are stuck in a certain denomination or under a teaching that does not teach that by grace we are saved, nevertheless, they love the Lord and love His ways and if they do not read their bible at least once a while, then they really do not know anything from anything. They can be very well saved but because of the teaching they are under, they are sadly limited.

Romans 8:16 tells us: "The Spirit Himself [thus] testifies together with our own spirit, [assuring us] that we are children of God." First and foremost, we have the unshakable testimony from within us! The indwelling Holy Spirit of God constantly reassures us that we belong to Jesus Christ.
The Word of God teaches that the Bible is incomprehensible to the "natural man"-the unsaved individual. It is a spiritual book and the unsaved person is not only spiritually blind, but 1 Corinthians 2:14 tells us that he "is incapable" of knowing that which is spiritually discerned. Do you understand the Bible? Does it make sense to you and speak to your heart? Does it convict you of your sin and teach you the right way?
Bev, if there is anyone sweet, it must be you and thank you for disagreeing with me lovingly:)

I know that I know that once we pray and ask Jesus to be our Lord and Savior and willingly ask Him to forgive us for all our sins and start to walk in His direction, that at that moment we are saved, and we will spend eternity with Jesus. Salvation is a gift, I know that for sure because the more I live and see how people really are or even me, the more I read the Word, the more I do not see how anybody can earn His salvation, no one that is for sure.
What I am saying is, I see so many old people, who grew up knowing about God, knowing that Jesus died for their sins, stayed in their denominations, have love for God, for Jesus and understand the power of the ten commandments. they did not pray a prayer like we did, maybe they did not know how to read, but in their hearts, they keep looking to Jesus knowing He died and rose from the dead, maybe they are not as biblicly correct in the way they talk about their salvation, they are the ones I am talking about, they are saved but do not know if they are saved and we need to be careful not to judge them but instead stir them to the Only One that can save them or convince them that by continuing to believe in Jesus as Lord and Savior, they are saved.
They are saved but limited in their learning because of the wrong or weak teaching they are under. I am saying they could not love Jesus, love the commandements of God and show it with the way they live if He did not put that in them to begin with.

I love you Bev so much:)
Theresa,
Dear Theresa I will follow your loving disagreeing here and asked you to please not lie. Bev sweet, come on.... hahaahaha Are we talking about the same Bev? hahahaaha peace out!

Bev - Don't you come back to hurt me woman. hehe Love you sis.
Theresa i am only kidding about you lying of course, Bev is the sweetest but Bev if you want to bring it, brirng it girl.

Those are very important observations, Theresa. I am 62 years old, and I have lived in "old world" countries, and I find that relatively young, protestant evangelicals often don't realize that there are more than a billion Christians who don't express their faith in the same way as protestant (especially American) evangelicals do. The important thing is that we agree on who Jesus Christ is (the Only Begotten Son of the only true and living GOD), and what He did for us (was crucified for the sins of the world and rose from the dead so that we can live forever). I use John 1:1 -7, Mark 8:29, John 11:27 and 1 Corinthians 15:1 -7 to express my faith in a way that anyone of any demographic can understand. These passages are so easy to memorize, you don't even have to have a Bible. I have talked to many devout, poor Christians who could not read, but they understood these things. Strange as it may seem to some, these truths are even taught and believed in thousands of Western and Eastern Catholic and Orthodox churches in spite of nearly two thousand years of human and satanic efforts to the contrary.

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