CALVINISM AND ARMINISM REVISITED

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on September 2, 2011 at 12:58pm

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on September 2, 2011 at 1:54pm

Great questions and topic my beloved Rich,

 

I have studied both Calvinism and Arminianism extensively for many years and they are both very different when we talk about how a person is save. The differences are almost night and day and yet similar. I have to go to work right now, but i will enjoy this thread later.

 

Apart from the differences of how a person is saved between this two schools of theology, the adherents to either school have a lot more in common than not.

 

I will get into the topic deeply soon. For now I will remind all here that this is a hot topic among us (the family in Christ), so let us love one another above all else and remember that our Lord is not coming for a Calvinist or an Arminian, He is returning for His Church, which is comprise of all the born again believers.

 

Blessings

Permalink Reply by Richard L. Broch, Sr. on September 12, 2011 at 9:53pm

Greetings brothers and sisters,

 

You guys have entered some thoughtful posts here so far. Praise God!

I guess one thing that bothers me in this difference of opinions is TO BE LABELLED WITH A MAN-MADE LABEL OF EITHER CALVINIST, OR ARMINIAN.

I was recently involved in an early morning Bible Study at a local coffee house with several men from a fairly new Bible Church in our area. It was a couple of months before it became known that their church was of the Calvinist persuation, by their own proud admission. I told them that I was of the position of  free choice of an individual. That's when I was referred to as an Arminian. I told them that I thought I was a Christian............

See guys, it's like several of you have posted - we're all Christians, and we can sit down together, in love, and reason sensibly with one another......... without bringing out signs and banners like at some big sporting event with one team winning the conference title. 

 

I really like the way Brother David V. has stated it - both positions have similiarities, and both have differences. Both have solid Bible passages to back them up.

That's why I maintain both approaches are accurate. Almighty God is too complex for us mere mortals to spell it out in our simple human terms, like we can pick His brain and figure it out.

This much I know - It's God's will that ALL would be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth.

 

Grace and Peace.

Permalink Reply by Richard L. Broch, Sr. on September 13, 2011 at 9:18pm

Brother Raul,

 

One major thing thing that has bothered me in this issue is that I have seen, heard, and read, Christians from both camps display their feelings, almost to the point of hostility, in trying to prove their positions. I can just imagine Satan laughing his tail off at all this.

 

I don't see this issue as a doctrinal pillar of our belief, so if you believe in God choosing certain people, that's fine with me. I'll tell you my interpretation, and we can agree to disagree. I think maybe 1 Timothy 1:4-5 comes into play here, Bro.

 

Lookey here, I believe that God not only chose Adam and Eve, He created them. He made them with a free choice, because through disobedience they sinned against Him. He didn't create robots.

 

Yes, Jesus chose His twelve disciples, and He knew what Judas was all about.

Jesus chose Saul of Tarsus on the road to Damascus because He had a special mission for him to do.

And Raul, I think we're both talking about the same thing in 1 Peter 4:6. Yes these were souls who heard the Gospel and died even before Peter wrote about this. Couldn't some of these righteous souls (chosen by God?) have died hundreds of years before Calvary been included in Jesus' preaching?

 

Grace and Peace.

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on June 25, 2012 at 10:50pm

Rich,

 

Adam and Eve did have true free will. We never did. We lived in a fallen world, where our will before being born again is only inclined to one thing - sin.

 

God indeed did not create robots and that is why the world is condemned, because the world chooses evil instead of God, even though God is not forcing them to stay blind. Nature itself screams the workmanship of God. Humanity is without an excuse.

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on September 19, 2011 at 2:01am

Permalink Reply by Richard L. Broch, Sr. on September 19, 2011 at 9:10pm

Brother David,

 

Thank you............. You are a true brother in Christ, and it is my pleasure to interact with you.

 

Grace and Peace.

Permalink Reply by Richard L. Broch, Sr. on June 3, 2012 at 8:08pm

Brother Roy,

 

Very well said.

I agree with a lot of your thoughts.

 

Regarding your comments about the Sabbath........Are you saying that Christ Jesus is your Sabbath?

That's what I believe the book of Hebrews is telling christians.

 

Grace and peace.

Permalink Reply by RoyW on June 3, 2012 at 9:47pm

Certainly in chapters three and four. Blessings. I noticed my reply came several months after the last post. The Sabbath is a very important part of Scripture. It apparently is not as obvious to many as many do not interpret it as so. I see many thinking they need to rest from their work on Saturday which is a good idea but certainly not required under the New Covenant. Our rest is in Jesus Christ and in Him alone. I see it is not a popular subject but I do appreciate you giving an old guy an opportunity to talk about the glorious work of our Savior.

Permalink Reply by Coffee Lover on June 5, 2012 at 2:45am

People do love labels, it's the only way some can interact with others. They can be useful (and sometimes necessary) for the purposes of conversation but I don't get why people try to shoehorn others into neat little boxes as if you must conform to that and nothing else.

Anyway, as has already been put, both have elements that are right and elements that are wrong. Or possibly more accurately, elements that people agree with and elements that they don't. I certainly have more Arminian leanings but then I've been told I'm on the more liberal side of interpreting scripture (which I don't see as a bad thing or an insult)

I once postulated God as like a decision tree in an attempt to solve the freewill vs predestination dilemma. He knows every single choice that we will ever face including choices as a result of previous choices, he knows every single consequence of every single choice and he knows us so well that he can predict with near (if not total) 100% accuracy what we will do and he has planned out what he wants for us; in effect the route through the decision tree. But we have free will to make the choices ourselves and essentially go against his plan. But because he knows the future choices, he can modify the methods to get us back on plan. I doubt God is unable to change his mind.

I'm not suggesting God is like this but it made a certain amount of sense. The massive flaw with the above is that it completely removes the relationship aspect (among other things) but, and here's the thing, I was using the above to try and make sense of something that is completely beyond my mind. This is what happens when you pigeon hole people, you lose 95% of what makes people them. In the same way, even if my idea is true, you'd lose 95% of what make God God.

Permalink Reply by RoyW on June 5, 2012 at 5:46am

It is certainly not important to me that someone accepts these views. The views I have come through a lifetime of researching His Word and seeking to know Him. It has been a evolving understanding. I would not like the idea that I had nothing more to learn. I associate mostly with Armenians. I don't like the labels either but it is a way to quickly explain the understanding of free will v. predestination. Eventually you do have to come to the crossroads of thought concerning those who believe and those who don't. We know it has nothing to do with intelligence as some of the most intelligent people in history were believers in the Lord. Do some people choose to believe and others choose not to believe? It is certainly one understanding that God knows us so well that He knows beforehand what decision each person would make. I must admit that I was there at one time in my understanding. I eventually came to think that man did not have the power on his own to choose Christ. Some will insist that everyone has the free will to choose and makes his own choice. To me, it is not worth being on opposite ends on that kind of discussion. As you have said before, what is most important is that a person does believe. Regardless of what brought him or her to that position, he is a believer. That is what is important.

If I made the decision to fellowship only among Calvinistic thinking people, I would be pretty lonely as there aren't that many of them.

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on June 25, 2012 at 9:55pm

HELLO  Rich -

 

>>If you want to start posting your favorite verses supporting your position again, go ahead. Were you ever able to sway the other camp with your Biblical points? Are there verses that each person thinks will convince the other of the final answers? Do Bible references of each camp seem to set the story straight? Is the issue still at a stand-off?

 

I would have to post the whole bible for the bible supports only one view, not two. I am a believer who believes in the doctrines of Grace, doctrines that come straight from the bible. Doctrines that were not penned down by Calvin or Luther, who were junior students of Augustus from 400AD and all the biblical writers, but by Paul, the Prophets of old and none other than Jesus and our Father, the great I am, so due to lack of space, just pick up your bible (your physical one) and consider me posting my favorite verses hahaha hahaha.

 

>>I think that both beliefs (Calvinism - Arminianism)  ARE CORRECT

 

They cannot be beloved Rich. They are very different in order of salvation, but they do have lots of stuff in common.

 

>>To start with, we see Jesus preaching to the dead in 1 Peter 4:6.

Compare Acts 26:23 with Peter's verse. And bring in Matthew 27:52. So, we see godly souls who have been "waiting" for Jesus to come free them from their "way station".

 

I think I understand what you are alluding to, but I would rather you explain it, because I do not want to assume I do. Unpack the comparison you are making with this verses or rather what truth do you see them teaching as it refers to the topic at hand?

 

>>Obviously, all godly people who died before Jesus' redemptive work at Calvary had to be CHOSEN by God, because He knew their hearts. Compare Luke 16:22.

 

All people are who are born again are chosen by God. People from the old and the new covenant.

 

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